Did Jack Johnson duck Langford ?

Okay. 1904. Too bad Johnson lost to Hart in March 1905. A pretty short time to be ranked #1. 1 year does not equal a duck.

Even you agree Jeffries beats Johnson in 1905. Too bad that fight didn't happen. If it did, Johnson might have actually be forced to give matches post-1907 to Langford, Jeannette, and Mcvey. Then we'd have a better idea of what type of fighter he was vs the best when his competition was also in their prime.

Only you feel Johnson didn't avoid Langford, Jeannette and McVey has Champions. He'd rather fight blown up middles ( who gave him trouble ) journeyman like ( Flynn a Jim Johnson ) and old men who had not fought in 6 years, and just okay white hope type in Moran. Any top champion would have cleaned up here. Johnson struggled. Gee, I wonder why. The first threatening heavyweight he fought as champion was Willard and he was Ko'd.

 

I think Johnson beats Jeffries after 1904,
unlike you I am prepared to amend my position in the face of researched information.


Would you actually like to answer the points I made, or will you as usual , content yourself with your normal tirade against Johnson?
Whilst champion, Johnson signed to fight Jeannette twice , signed to fight Langford twice and McVey once.These fell through due to circumstances beyond Johnson's control....
The only fault you can find with Johnson is he did not honour his contract to fight Langford in London.Johnson's reasoning was that once he was champion he deserved a purse commensurate with the status of worlds champion which the notoriously parsimonius NSC did not offer.

Johnson was so frightened of fighting Jeannette that 6 days after
being dsq'd in dubious circumstances against him,[the only time that Jeannette beat Johnson,Jack took on Young Peter Jackson after agreeing to stop him or the fight being called a draw,[Jackson refused to engage and ran for his life.] Johnson then fought Jeannette the day after! And again10 days later! Yeah he must have been shaking in his boots!


Rather fight blown up middleweights? "

"What type of fighter he was vs the best when his competition was in their prime."
If Johnson had fought and beaten Langford again, the very thing you would be accusing him of would be beating up a blown up middleweight and we both know it!
As to beating blown up middles and past prime old men coming out of retirement.
We are talking about Jack Johnson , not Jim Jeffries!:rofl


You continually call Jim Johnson a journeyman yet he beat Jeannette ,and drew with both him McVey and Langford three men that you say Johnson ducked? Given that fact , are they journeymen too?
Surely if he could beat Jeannette and hold him , Langford and McVey even he was not a journeyman, the only other logical explanation is that they were overated!
Which is it?

In the words of Anton Chigurh to the storekeeper in,
" No Country For Old Men","you don't know what you're talking about do you!

 

After Johnson toyed with Jack Munroe the top referee ,George Siler said this.
"Undoubtedly the best big man in the business at present is Jack Johnson the colored heavyweight champion,and Hart shows excellent judgement in avoiding him".
"It is the opinion of all fair-minded witnesses that Johnson beat Hart in their recent fight at San Francisco and undoubtedly can repeat the trick ,so it probably is better for the game that Hart drew the color line."

The San Francisco Bulletin said of the Johnson v Hart fight ,and Hart's refusal to rematch Johnson,
"At the end of 20 rds with rings boxed around him,the referee practically made him a present of the contest.A draw would not have been giving Johnson the best of it!."

 

So he didn't fight the best black fighters JUST AS I STATED. Are you going to get anything right? Jackson was a shell of himself, total shell. That wasn't the least big significant. Neither was Armstrong. Griffin was okay at least. That still doesn't meet the criteria. You can't get over the fact that you've been caught in a double standard. Jeffries himself ducked the best fighters available as Champion. You were caught. Accept it.

 

:good The truth hurts ,but it is always the truth.:deal

 

After beating a young, not yet fully developed Langford, Johnson would never fight him again. He used every excuse possible including the "two blacks won't draw". Since when did he care about the size of the audience as long as he got paid the promised amount? He was scared of Langford pure and simple.

 

Post Jeffries Johnson was done unless he got a ton of money .. no doubt he knew Langford was a very dangerous fighter at that stage of their careers .. he was not fighting Sam unless he received a terrific offer for it ...

 

Johnson had no reason whatsoever to be afraid of Langford.

He beat him badly when they did fight and Johnson was the superior fighter.

 

The opinion of Clay Moyle who wrote Langford's biography is that Johnson beats Langford .

 

The problem with this statement is that it was not just Johnson who said "two blacks won't draw" it was also the opinion of the three major US promoters
Namely
Sunny Jim Coffroth = " Two blacks won't draw flies"
Barney Curley= "The public wont buy a heavyweight title fight between two coloreds"
Tex Rickard =" a fight between two blacks isn't worth a bucket of warm p*ss" .
What is boils down to, is the size of the expected audience dictates the size of the purse, that is how boxing works.Comprende?
Promoters are in the business of putting on shows that will draw gates, if they were of the opinion that two blacks contesting the heavyweight title would have drawn a decent gate then would have put the wheels in motion to promote one!
Since they didn't, I think we can safely assume they did not think there was any coin in such a fight.
That being the case Johnson was not making an excuse he was stating a fact!
So if the top promoters weren't prepared to promote such a fight it wasn't happening.

It seems a no brainer to me.:huh

I've repeatedly asked Mendoza to provide positive proof of genuine offers from promoters for Johnson to defend his title
against Langford for his asking price of $30,000.

I now extend the question to you.
You can make all the accusations you want but, without a shred of proof to substantiate them they are ,to quote Rickard,
" not worth a bucket of warm p*ss".

 

And he wouldn't be getting into the ring in the shape he was for O Brien or Moran.

 

Now way could Jack duck Sam...he was way too small.

 

His stature,or lack of it is actually the reason contemporary papers did not give him a realistic chance with Johnson.
Btw I got the joke.

 

Utter BS. I suppose Peter Jackson who had not lost a fight in 10+ year wasn't significant. Yes he was older, but he was a hall of fame guy.

I suppose Hank Griffin who Jeffries beat twice, once as champion and who went 1-0-2 vs Jack Johnson wasn't significant. Bob Armstrong wasn't chopped liver only. All of the above fighters were well known and black in the fight game. The more informed posters here will verify the above.

You see, you are really not qualified for this conversation.

I'd love to see your definition of ducking 101.

Um, you first said

Obviously, you're dead wrong!!! Now you're moving the goal posts as far back as you can! I think the poster mcvey has infected your noggin.

Yes, he Jeffries did fight the some of the best black fighters. Which black fighter pre 1904 was better that Jeffries missed out on? A teenaged Sam Mcvey ( 18-19-year-old ) is about as best as you can do.

He also has a reported KO over Martin and Childs if you care to know.

 

Yep