Jack Johnson Agrees To defend Against Sam McVey For $30,000

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Jun 27, 2016.


  1. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Jeffries here, his comments, are to let the PUBLIC know he would not go against the expected norm of the color line and give a black a chance of winning the championship.

    He is not quite obviously announcing to the world that he is afraid to fight a black hwt. He fought a goodly percentage of his bouts against black men.
     
  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    He is quite obviously saying that as long as he is champion he will not defend against a black man, before he won the title he had no problems doing so.
    When you state repeatedly that you will not take a chance on losing the title to a black man by facing one, you are saying you are afraid of the possibility of being beaten by one
    There can be no other possible interpretation of the statement.


    Then again the blacks he met prior to winning the title were not of the calibre of those who were in the frame when he was the title holder.
    It wasn't just champions that refused to fight black opponents,after losing to one Tom Sharkey drew the colour line, Luther McCarty announced he would not fight one, Marvin Hart never fought another after Johnson, nor did Corbett after Jackson.Willard drew the colour line like every white champion before him except for Burns.
     
  3. TheOldTimer

    TheOldTimer Active Member Full Member

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    And you blindly believe his account of events without acknowledging researcher bias as a factor in his story telling?
    Sugar is a legitimate respected world famous boxing historian who appears on countless documentaries, bios, boxing programmes and who has been quoted in dozens of boxing books.
    Sugar is 1000% more reliable than some unknown writer and fan that only a handful of people have heard of.
     
  4. TheOldTimer

    TheOldTimer Active Member Full Member

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    They drew the colour line because they could, it meant they didn't have to fight the best fighters.
    Its that simple.
     
  5. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    In terms of Jeffries this is absolutely untrue.

    The norm.....what was EXPECTED from the PUBLIC of all white hwt champions was an announcement that the champion would not allow a black man a chance at winning the championship. The reason? A black hwt champion signifies that a black man could physically defeat any man in the world (in the white publics mind....,every white man in the world). This was in an era where the white man was doing all he could to ensure the black man was thought of as not on the white mans level....even sub human. A black hwt champion was thought of as the beginning of the end of white man dominance. Lots of phycological and social implications FAR FAR deeper than simply Jeffries being afraid to fight a black man. If you believe that you have very superficial knowledge of the time period.
     
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I'd take a bet with you that if you canvassed a coterie of real boxing experts Adam Pollack would have more credibility than Bert Sugar who repeated a score of discredited fairy tails over and over again. Sugar was the king of self promotion from the fedora to the unsmoked cigar all he lacked was a card saying press in his hat band! Why should Pollack's books be subject to researcher bias and not Sugars?

    I've never known any one refer to Pollack as a story teller whereas Sugar was regularly accused of it and caught out bullsh*tting several times.

    Have you actually read any of Pollack's 6 biographies? They are diligently researched ,if you haven't you are speaking from ignorance and unqualified to give an opinion on his work.
     
  7. TheOldTimer

    TheOldTimer Active Member Full Member

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    Sure Bert told a few tales but sugar was on a much larger platform and so more open to being criticized.
    Primary sources, facts can't be questioned but intangible details about Johnson such as what he thought about defending against black challengers certainly can be and Bias certainly plays its part in opinions and Pollack is not exempt.
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Facts like agreeing to fight the leading black contenders ,signing to do so and posting cash forfeits,only to have the fights cancelled by boxing commissions and promoters?
    Are these the facts you're referring to?


    ps I take it you haven't actually read any of the books by the author you are criticizing.
    Why am I not surprised?
    I don't think any evidence would be enough for you, your mind was made up long ago.
     
  9. TheOldTimer

    TheOldTimer Active Member Full Member

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    But the fights never happened.
    Can you explain why he only fought one black fighter after wining the title despite dozens beforehand?
    Im not trying to criticize anyone, just stating what seems obvious, don't be so defensive.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Having read extensively about Johnson , I think I can explain it, he was limited to how many white fighters would actually fight him.
    Once he became champion they all wanted to, and that's where the $$$ was .

    I'd hazard a guess that is generally accepted as the truth,and I'm surprised anyone would need an explanation really.:huh
    Johnson didn't get his chance at the title until he was 30 years old, he was restricted to fighting on the so called "chittlin circuit" for much of his early career.


    I'm not being defensive, it isn't in my nature.
     
  11. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sugar was more a huckster than a true boxing historian IMO.
     
  12. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    You may well be right on that one.
     
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Anyone revering him as a respected historian has a huge question mark against his boxing knowledge imo.
    Particularly when he boosts his reputation against Adam Pollack's,whose books he hasn't even read:patsch
     
  14. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sugar was not even aware that Foreman was counted out in the eighth round vs Ali. Sugar was allot of talk without much thought behind his words.
     
  15. TheOldTimer

    TheOldTimer Active Member Full Member

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    Seeing as he watched it live i'm sure he was aware of what was going on in front of his eyes.
    Whether or not it slipped his mind at one time in his life doesn't really mean much.