Is Sugar Ray Leonard overrated?

is that all you got? Sucking ****?

you may not have noticed but that's what you and the others do with SRL!

If you're going to suck it, suck off the best ones I always say

The name of the game is most defenses, most big names on a resume

and Terry Norris, according to your rules, wins in all categories

not to mention speed.

Put another way, Norris has his PHD in speedology

and if you had the ***** to watch all thru the Norris - srl fight, you would have noted the obvious which is, that the attack of Norris was, dare I say it, SPEEDLICIOUS!

the two other gentlemen were so short sighted, suffered a most undignified exit from this conversation and have not reported back yet

They found that their claims were not able to stand up under Redrooster standard critiquing

you could say that short sightedness was their undoing

The first buffoon was asked why his none of his experts called the Norris- srl fight

We both knew that any reply of his was doomed and in the end that I was going to discredit them

Nevertheless, I waited for the stalling to subside, and waited and waited some more until finally he caved and responded with "that fight was 25 years ago. most of the experts hadn't been born yet"


and the other buffoon was going around how great Benitez looked beating his "still awesome Duran" until I proved to him his Duran was the same Duran who was just as easily if not more so, outboxed by mediocre K. Laing

and that burst his bubble

Now, if you know what's good for you, you will just swallow your pride take a back seat to me; lie down and fold lillies across your chest!

 

Despite having to wade through your disgustingly arrogant drivel, I will respond to it here:

Terry was better in "all qualities" ?

Chin? Well, no.

Speed?

Well, he was certainly faster than the 35 yrs old Leonard.

What about the 78-82 Leonard?

It's debatable but certainly not clear cut

Punching power?

Again, debatable

Durability?

Clear advantage for Leonard

Defense?

I'd give Leonard the edge

Per other highlighted portion of your post:

Number of defenses is not as important as overall quality of opposition

Also the significance of "Names on a Resume" is dependent on WHEN A FIGHTER FACES SAID NAMES.

Norris's biggest "name" wins:

Meldrick Taylor, Ray Leonard, Donald Curry, John Mugabi, Maurice Blocker. Simon Brown (second fight)

All five, including Leonard wer significantly jaded when he beat them. Also, Leonard fought at a weight he hadn't made in years, and Taylor was moving up to 154 lbs for the first time. Curry was twice beaten at 154 lbs, one of which was a loss to the mediocre Jacquot, and was coming right off a ko loss to Nunn. Mugabi had been kod by Hagler and Duane Thomas and his only significant win since was a freak ko of Jacquot, when he broke his ankle and had to quit. Blocker had been stopped by Simon Brown at welterweight and had barely decisioned the competent Luis Garcia. Blocker moved up in weight to fight Norris. Brown was at his best at 147 lbs, and had just kod Norris. He had suffered a bad beating and loss to Buddy McGirt at 147, then moved up to junior middleweight.

All big names but none prime and only Mugabi, arguably, at his best weight. All fighting Norris at his best weight.

The big name prime guy Norris fought who was also natural at 154 lbs. - Julian Jackson - well we know what happened there.

As for "number of defenses", yes Norris had a lot of successful defenses in his two 154 lb reigns

But here are the guys he beat other than the "name" guys I have already ****yzed: Pretty mediocre bunch. I threw in a couple of his non-title wins, and the DQ losses to Luis Santana just for fun.


1997-01-11
Nick Rupa 26 4 1


50
1996-09-07
Alex Rios 18 2 0

W TKO

49
1996-02-24
Vincent Pettway 38 5 1

48
1996-01-27
Jorge Luis Vado 13 0 1

W TKO 7

1995-12-16
Paul Vaden 24 0 0

W UD

46
1995-09-16
David Gonzalez 40 4 1

W
TKO


45
1995-08-19
Luis Santana 40 15 2

W TKO

44
1995-04-08
Luis Santana 39 15 2

L
DQ



43
1994-11-12
Luis Santana 38 15 2

L DQ

1993-09-10
Joe Gatti 20 2 0

W TKO

1993-06-19
Troy Waters 20 2 0
1992-12-13

W TKO

Pat Lawlor 18 3 0

(Wait, he beat Lawlor who beat Benitez and Duran, so Terry must be greater than Duran and Benitez, right? )

W TKO

1992-02-22
Carl Daniels 26 0 0

W TKO


1991-12-13
Jorge Fernando Castro 67 2 2


W UD

1991-08-17
Brett Lally 29 5 0

W TKO

1990-07-13
Rene Jacquot 26 10 1

W UD

Meanwhile....

Sugar Ray Leonard's best wins:

Roberto Duran
Thomas Hearns
Wilfred Benitez
Marvin Hagler

Duran was coming off one of the best performances of his career in edging Leonard over 15 rounds.

Leonard showed his versatility by utilizing his legs and handspeed to humiliate Duran, who couldn't do anything. Duran quit

Hearns was an undefeated co-champion at 147 lbs.

This was a superfight between champions who had pretty much cleaned out the division.

Leonard again showed his versatility by overcoming significant height and reach disadvantages and pressuring Hearns in the middle and late rounds - eventually wearing him down and stopping him late.

Benitez was an undefeated two division champion who was pretty much in his absolute prime.

Leonard kept the fight in ring center and out boxed a master boxer. He refused to fall into Benitez's game of countering off the ropes.

It was not exciting, but Leonard got the job done.

Hagler was a bit past his best, but still very dangerous and was extremely physically strong and a natural 160 pounder.

He had not lost in 10 yrs and had been a dominant undisputed Middleweight champion.

Leonard had only one fight in 5 yrs and was fighting at 160 lbs basically for the first time. He had fought Marcos Geraldo years earlier, but Leonard was not really a 160 lb fighter when he beat Geraldo.

Leonard used his foot and hand speed to outhustle Hagler in a very close fight.

Leonard also annexed a 154 lb title against the capable Ayub Kalule.

His defenses at 147 lbs included the competent Randy Shields

Admittadly, Bruce Finch and and Davy "Boy Green" were overmatched mediocrities - but Leonard destroyed both early, as well he should have.

As for his second career after the long layoff (excluding Hagler) .....

The 175 title win over LaLonde was somewhat of a farce as he made LaLonde come in at 168 lbs, which clearly weakened him.

The third fight with Duran was relatively meaningless, but Duran did hold a somewhat legitimate middleweight title after beating Barkley.

The Hearns rematch was significant because of their names only - both guys were past their best and at a much higher weight than in their primes.

However, Hearns did go on to beat one of the best 175 lb. champs of recent times - Virgil Hill.

Even without the LaLonde, Hearns rematch (Draw) and Duran III,

Just based on his "first career" and Hagler , Leonard > Norris.

 

One of the very best posts I've ever read on the subject of Leonard vs Norris..nice job.. Unfortunately it was a lot of typing for nothing as all this has been explained to rooster before and it always falls on def ears...

 

what a terrible waste of space that was, and without proving anything

I like to keep my posts short and to the point like so: "when you're as talented as Terry Norris, you pile up ten defenses. When you're not nearly so talented and industrious, you end up with none (Like Sugar Ray Leonard) and have others make with excuses to take up the slack (it/s not quantity that matters, it's quality)"



well obviously, if you have no defenses, then quantity is absent and therefore you have no quality

PS: Duran was a lightweight

The end

 

This content is protected

- Where do you have Norris in your top 15 of all time?

 

Look at that terribly biased writing! It's like something out of Sports Illustrated

Seriously, you left out Sugar Ray Leonard (as if we're somehow supposed to somehow forget they fought)

and left out Mel Taylor as well

What happened? Did you forget to transfer the two names over as you posted?

Maybe you're afraid of making Norris look as good as he actually was

Whatever the reason, he defeated both fighters with no problem and I NEVER once heard anything about Meldrick slowing down so YES, Norris WOULD HAVE defeated both fighters any time and any place, prime or no prime.

Because let's face it, Leonard could not handle someone with Terry's speed and lacked the know how of how to deal with his lightning counters, defensive maneuvers, foot speed, and ability to tie up his man, just to name a few; leonard didnt have the experience to deal with a fighter of such speedlicious ability

 

it's funny. he keeps Marvin Hagler as a legit win but won't include Leonard or Taylor or Brown or Mugabi as a legit win

that's a clear case of bias in evidence

Hagler was favored 3-1 over Leonard so in your view, we should not exclude the win as disputed as it was

Now, Mugabi, and Leonard were also both favored over Norris and because he makes mince meat out of both of them you try to reason "well, it can't be that Terry was that good so it must be that both were shot. Ad the same applies to Meldrick Taylor but I won't try to reason that out. Maybe Rooster won't notice and just accept everything I tell him "

More painfully obvious bias

"Durability?

Clear advantage for Leonard

Defense?

I'd give Leonard the edge"

Those were your words

In reality however, Leonard rarely touched Norris, and Norris ate thru Leonard's defense, winning every round, and at least 4 of them won by 10-8

What fight were you watching?

Durability also goes to Norris- big time

Note that on the rare occasions Leonard connected at point blank range, Norris seemed not to have noticed and shrugged it off as one would a mild spring rain, then floated away like a beautiful young butterfly

The speed, Oh, the SPEED!

If you somehow missed it, Norris scored twice with the knockdowns

How many times di Leonard take down Norris?

What's that? ZERO?

That's right, zero

so stop acting like you have a case there sonny boy! You have none :yep

 

No point in stating what actually happened, or that Leonard was the favourite in the Norris fight Red. It will always fall on the deaf ears of the Leonard fan boys, who will have a million excuses for his total humiliation. Because that is exactly what it was. Leonard didn't just LOSE, he was made to look an idiot. Worse in fact than his fan boys CLAIM he made the LIGHTWEIGHT Duran look in their rematch.

As you state the scores were 120 - 106 in favour of Norris. How many points was Leonard up when Duran had had enough of Leonards tap and run tactics?

How about their claims about the significance of the Leonard / Hearns fight? Not one of them will acknowledge Tommy was severely weight drained, to the point of NEVER even attempting to make 147 again though he went on to box for another 25 YEARS. How long did Leonard last? A measly 8 fights over 16 years due to his " convenient " retirements and his insistence on catchweights.

So yeah, a great talent but highly over rated due to the perceived value of his resume.

 

the ESB forumers, even the more knowledgeable ones, are still in the infantile state

they don't realize that Dundee went out of his way to feed Leonard a certain style of fighter or else suffer the consequences of defeat

And so Kevin Howard, and Don Lalonde (who secretly possessed two titles but was never announced to the public, his 168 pound title against as yet unannounced foe) were fed him on account of Leonard's limitations

the common ailment of the opposition was that they all had the same characteristics - slow, limited, and no footwork

what were they going to do, face Hagler in his prime and throw him in with Micheal Nunn?

well, we all saw what happened the minute his management changed and they put him in with a young speedster; disaster

 

Well, I would say that if Leonard is in anyone's top 15 then Norris can be in my top 15 easily

naturally since Norris defeated Leonard

and moreover, Norris made his ten defenses to Leonard's none

and in mathematical terms, 10>0! meaning more is better

can you believe John, that a certain ESB forumer rebuked me for bringing up this point saying "it's QUALITY that matters, not quantity" and tried to make this the focal point of this debate

This same poster then went further by trying to pull the wool over my eyes, disregarding the result of their one sided little encounter

the same poster that told me how AWESOME Benitez was in outpointing the still FORMIDABLE Duran while overlooking the fact that same year mediocrity Kirkland Laing dispatched him with even greater ease

He probably STILL can't see why his arguments fail, the short sighted little booger!

as for Norris, simply put, in his prime, no one could test him: sluggers like Mugabi were put out right away; master boxers like Leonard were thoroughly outboxed; speedsters like Mel Taylor were outspeeded; and boxer-punchers Don Curry were both outboxed and punched to pieces

all without half trying!

and that's why Norris gets special consideration even if, he lacks star power

why do you think he's in the hall of fame?

 

I schooled you with a post I wrote in 10 minues.

Like someone else said, people have been telling you the same for five years and you'll never get it. That's okay

It took you five days to respond.

You should have stayed away with your tail between your legs.

I am not surprised at all, Foxy, as subjective a poster as there is on here, who has posted some of the worst **** regarding Leonard I've seen on here, agrees with you.

Birds of a feather flock together.

 

This is one of the dumbest posts I've read on here.

 

10 minutes huh? you must be the fastest writer in the west

either that or the biggest liar :yep

as for schooling, schooled me with what, that Benitez outpointed Duran in a masterful performance that was repeated by nobody Kirkland Laing but you forgot all about it?

PLEASE, HOW DUMB AND SHORTSIGHTED can you get!

You see, schooling is when you bring these things up and the other side can't bring himself to acknowledge it
:twisted:
you're a joke and shouldnt even be on this forum

as for Foxy, his words have the ring of sweet truth to them (unlike your words which have the bitter ring of deception)

 

Let's just take a look at the biggest names your beloved Terry beat:

Sugar Ray Leonard - Great win granted but Leonard was over the hill whatever you say.

John Mugabi - Ruined by Hagler and was always somewhat limited anyway.

Donald Curry - Totally shot when Norris fought him

Jorge Castro - Exciting but B level

Meldrick Taylor - Ruined by Chavez and had no business fighting at 154 anyway.

Maurice Blocker - Fighting past his best weight

Simon Brown - Fighting past his best weight and got KTFO by him the first time.

:hi:

 

Why don't you back and actually take the time to READ his whole post. He DID talk about Taylor and Leonard and gave an ****ysis on those fights, then proceeded to make a list of the OTHER guys norris faced, and explained why he left them off... I told him that post was a waste of time and naturally I was right.