Prime Larry Holmes vs. Prime Lennox Lewis who wins?

Holmes by decision.

 

Snipes? Snipes had a solid right hand but was no huge puncher whatsoever. Holmes was in the middle of about 11 fights in a row where he didn't stop a single opponent. Witherspoon had him in big trouble as well and he was a decent puncher at the time without being notable. He hit a bit harder later.

Butterbean didn't knock him down in reality.

 

Holmes via easy UD. Size was no kind of advantage with Larry, who had picnics with Cobb, the quick and talented Leroy Jones, and Gerry was only close in the minds of two extremely delusional judges. Most would have scored the rounds in which Snipes and Shavers floored Holmes only by a margin of 10-9, NOT 10-8, and those were the only rounds Renaldo and Earnie ever won against Larry.

The elephant in the room everybody trying to make a case for Lennox here seems to be terrified of addressing is the speed of Holmes, and Larry's Championship Distance credentials which Lennox could never share.

If there is indeed a knockout, only Holmes can produce it, after Lennox drags himself and that huge body of his across the ring in sheer exhaustion to begin one of the Championship Rounds he won't be able to finish on his feet.

Lennox is too big a target and slow to have a chance here. Holmes unloaded 60 jabs in round two of the Shavers rematch, which was one KD short of being Ali-Patterson I all over again. If Lennox tries jabbing with Larry (could anybody possibly be that stupid with Steward in his corner?), he's in for as humiliating a schooling as Ray Mercer got.

 

Larry has no trouble with Lewis' size because he got past Leroy Jones, Cobb and C00ney? That's like comparing a crack in the bedroom wall to the grand canyon. Jones was little more than a clubfighter and had very little power to boot despite being a such big man, and FAT. Lewis would have murdered him.

Cobb was tough as nails but very limited.

C00ney at the end of the day never beat a top contender. He might have been a really good fighter if he was managed properly and learnt his trade as opposed to relying on his big left hook and hard jab.

Putting these forth as evidence would be thrown out of court.

Just remember, people can look this stuff up nowadays. Jones is most ordinary. Imagine what Lewis would have done to these three. Put them up against David Tua even, a guy Lewis breezed past.

Link if it doesn't load.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkzAPBcnVaU

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkzAPBcnVaU[/yt]

 

The point I was making JT is a matter of logistics. Lennox has no chance of winning simply because he is bigger than Larry, as some posters here seem to suggest. Whether or not Lennox defeats Holmes can have nothing to do with being 6'2" or 6'8." LL will have to defeat Larry by being BETTER, regardless of height and weight.

Above a certain height and reach, bigger is NOT better, BETTER is better.

Jones, Cobb and Gerry demonstrate that the size of Lennox alone would afford absolutely nothing in the way of logistical defensive benefits against getting scored on. (No human heavyweight can ever be too big to defeat peak Holmes or Ali with their size only.)

Of course the reality is that immediately after McCall knocked out Lennox with a single punch, old man Larry pushed Oliver to the limit over 12 complete rounds. LL never proved he could be as competitive against McCall in two attempts over an extended distance as Holmes proved in a single try.

Tag on their respective showings against Mercer, again while Larry was in his 40's.

John, I'm fully aware that you didn't suggest in your reply I'm answering here that prime Lennox would defeat prime Holmes simply because LL was bigger, but there are other posters who actually are. Considering old Larry's vastly superior performances against McCall and Mercer to those of peak Lennox, are those posters completely daft in suggesting the very best version of LL wouldn't have been completely taken to the woodshed by the Holmes of Shavers I or 1982?

 

You brought up some excellent pairings, by the way. Cobb would never take a backwards step against Tua, and Tex's best punch was a slowish but extremely heavy jab. Can David, with his lack of height and reach, take Cobb with work rate while giving ground or moving laterally, or does Tex's offensive jab and work rate in Dokes II carry the distance?

Gerry could not have decisioned the much more physically powerful and durable Cobb. Tex's lack of punching power is what would allow that to go the distance, but nobody I worked with was betting any money on Gerry after Cobb-Shavers.

Leroy Jones was the Buster Mathis, Sr. (albeit with less power and mobility) of his era, but came out of his sick bed to take on Holmes (just as Larry later did to deal with Witherspoon). Regardless of his health, Jones had no chance with Holmes, but a healthy Leroy would have had serious handspeed, skill and reflex advantages over Cobb and Gerry. Tex's lack of power costs him dearly with Jones. Leroy's skill, speed and ability to win over the 12 round distance versus Gerry's early power makes that one a toss up for me, but I tend to lean towards Jones via 12 round decision. (Again, my mind is open to revision here.)

Cobb definitely takes Lennox the distance without ever getting knocked off his feet (and Tex wasn't a bleeder like Wepner either, or a guy whose face swelled up). The interesting question here is whether or not Lennox could somehow manage to shut Cobb out over the Championship Distance, as only Holmes could even come remotely close to doing in 1982 (on Tex's home turf, no less).

 

What poster in here said Lewis would win "simply because he is bigger than Larry"?????

The person mentioning size was me. I mentioned it as part of an overall package. Anyone thinking Lewis size and reach will not affect the fight somewhat as an overall package has little idea.

Size is useful when you can fight as well. Lewis is myriads better than the guys you mentioned, to say the least. He knows how to use his size to his advantage and did so in numerous fights. He can also jab. Holmes might be a great jabber, but Lewis size and reach as well as his own good jab will somewhat nullify Homes perceived advantage there.

Even against the quite limited Leroy Jones Holmes did not jab him out of the contest, not even close. He wouldn't jab Lewis out of it either. Jones got off plenty of punches and landed some, but overall was sloppy and at times ponderous. Lewis would absolutely be looking to land a right hand bomb over the low left post jab.

Times have changed a bit on this and uncordinated lumps are no longer mandatory. Guys like Lewis and to a lesser extent the two Klits show you can be massive and still have some decent skill and co-ordination, unlike the days of Jones, ****ey and co. Tony Tucker too.

Again, no-one was talking aboute Lewis beating Holmes on size alone. Size however will be an asset here, because he can fight.

Size and strength will also an advantage in the clinches. Holmes will have to be well within Lewis' range to land jabs.

Which means nothing in the overall context of this one. This was not the peak version of Lewis and the technical flaw was worked on by the very trainer that went thru it. Holmes will not have the luxury of facing this Lewis, besides the fact Holmes wouldn't be stopping him with one punch regardless. He is a clubbing puncher who stopped people via accumulation and/or being miles above their class.

McCall's efforts in the Lewis rematch (Lewis won) can hardly be held against Lewis in an attempt to make Holmes losing effort look better. Lewis would have blown out guys like Snipes who had Larry down and severely hurt. Lewis also would have blown out Norton, who gave Larry hell for 15. Doesn't this mean Lewis automatically wins? Holmes probably would have got out of trouble underprepared against Rahman, but again, it has no bearing here.

Irrelevant in this one as per above.

What ones? I cannot see anyone here backing Lewis for his size alone.

Cherry picking never gets it done in the real world. There are hundreds of examples over time of fighter x whupping fighter A who fighter B lost to yet fighter B flogs fighter x.

Shavers was a very limited fighter even if he may well be the hardest puncher ever. He was made to order for Larry. Even then he almost got decapitated and did well not to get stopped. Others had a lot easier time getting him out of there. Against a more talented fighter like Lewis we may well have seen a different conclusion.

As for Larry taking Lewis to the woodshed, he seldom took anyone to the woodshed without great effort and drama.

A past prime Norton gave him an immense battle.

Unheralded Mike Weaver had him reeling.

Shavers had him down so hard some said he woke up when he hit the floor.

Renaldo Snipes, far from a world beater, had him down heavily as well.

Witherspoon had him reeling in a very close tussle. This was probably the start of the wane and it would be unfair to look past this date.

So we see Larry had loads of problems with far far lesser opponents than Lewis would be. The best fighter Holmes ever actually beat was a past prime Norton. His era, apart from himself, was very very limited and full of underachievers.

Lewis beat a solid array of very dangerous fighters. He had his off nights even at his best but got the job done every time in a 6-7 year patch.

Decent arguments can be put up for both men but thinking Holmes would have en easy time with Lewis when he didn't have an easy time with smaller far less dangerous opponents is wishful thinking imo. Lewis right hand could well spell doom for him. Surviving when hurt against the likes of Shavers, Spoon, Weaver and Snipes would be far easier than doing it against Lewis.

Both are all time greats and well within the top 10 ever. It's a great matchup.

 

Yes, this could happen

But if Larry was cautious and used consistent movement he could avoid this happening.

I re-watched Holmes/Shavers II a few days ago. Holmes definitely held his hands way too low and he got complacent. He was way ahead and stopped using lateral movment. Shavers tagged him good. And it wasn't one lucky punch, as some on here often portray. Shavers hurt him early in the round and had him stunned. Then, he landed the haymaker later in the round.

Lewis, too sometimes ate big right hands too when he got complacent.

Larry might not be able to take him out with one shot, but he could certainly hurt Lewis.


I still think Larry, if he utilizes his speed and movement advantages should win a decision.

 

Lewis is one of the worst matchs for holmes like tyson,frazier and joe louis

 

Nice thread, good posts

 

Cheers mate. I think Tua is a full level above Cobb tbh. I see him outpointing him comfortably and Cobb would take some massive punches. Cobb's offense is pretty average and Tua has a chin not unlike Cobbs. Be an ATG chin matchup!!!

****ey had a decent jab, and it was hard. Honestly, over 10 rounds i could see ****ey prevailing. Then again he never beat a live corpse and only lasted against Holmes because Larry took the very safe route and shut out the limited ****ey's chances. Apart from shots to the nuts!

Larry used to throw up quite a few excuses after poor showings and i don't buy many of them at all. He had the flu against this one, he took that one lightly etc etc and these were for wins!

Jones really wasn't much. Remember you used him to show why Holmes would have no trouble with Lewis' size but now say Larry didn't face a good version of him. I don't rate Jones much at all. I think the fight lends itself more to Lewis than Holmes.

Even Cobb is of higher class than Jones. Cobb would have defeated him, of that i would be hugely confident. ****ey would have poleaxed the guy, he'd be made to order for him.

Sorry mate, but i really think you are making farrrrr too much of Jones. Decisioning Weaver well before his known confidence growth (decisioned by Stan Ward previous fight) doesn't really rate for me. Weaver was always unhappy about the decision too.

If Jones got himself in top shape he may have made a bit of progress. From memory the eye injury he suffered against Larry ended him. There were claims of thumbing in the fight, which happened reasonably often in Holmes bouts.

I'm not 100% sold he could survive Lewis even after taking Shavers the distance. Shavers was a very average fighter with enormous power. Lewis is a great fighter with huge power. The gulf in class would be enormous and Cobb's defense was swiss cheese.

Lewis would be harder for Cobb to survive than Shavers IMO. Not for one minute saying he couldn't, he had a great chin for a time. Head like a rock lol. He'd be odds on to get there but a stoppage would not totally shock me.

Holmes was at his finest against Cobb. Granted there was a huge gulf in class and Cobb was made to order but he was in fine fettle.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lewis shut him out. He might also lose a round or two. Pre exile Ali would turn the trick, as would Tyson if it lasted.

Admired Cobb, he went a decent way on limited talent and was a great character with awesome humor. Real colorful bloke with enormous toughness. Very modest, a rare quality in the game LOL

Great bantering as always mate. If we all thought the same it'd be pretty boring.

 

It`s funny in a way. I think both of these guys had a tendency to fall asleep if they didn`t view their opponents as a threat. Holmes could control guys with his boxing skills and sometimes just lose his concentration and get caught. On the other hand when they were on high alert they both took a pretty damn good punch.

 

Bottom line in this context is that both would be on high alert. With uncompromised concentration, Holmes is the participant I'd give hand speed to, mobility, jab volume and effectiveness to, and championship distance stamina and experience to (through no fault of Lennox's). I just don't see LL decking Larry, but if he somehow managed it, even peak Tyson needed 45 seconds to deliver the coup de gras with only five seconds remaining in the round on a 38 year old Holmes out of retirement with 18 months of ring rust. Prime Lennox has no chance of stopping prime Holmes, who was constantly on the move.

 

Amen

 

close fight, i'll take a holmes decision.

i agree.