The best HW never to hold the lineal title.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016.


Page 1 of 10
  1. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,178
    Sep 15, 2009
    To avoid any debate we'll take lineage as the man who beat the man, or in case of retirement the winner of a match between 1v2 ring ranked opponents.

    There have been a lot of great heavyweights and not all of them were lineal champions. Out of those who was never lineal champ who was the best?

    I reckon some strong contenders are:

    Holmes
    Vitali
    Tua
    Byrd
    Witherspoon
    Quarry
    Lyle
    Young
    Bivins
    Langford
    Wills

    Anyone I've forgotten?

    My pick has to be Holmes for now, I did used to consider Vitali till I looked more closely at Holmes title claim.
     
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    #1
  2. Longhhorn71

    Longhhorn71 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    12,714
    3,456
    Jan 6, 2007
    Was Norton considered to be a Lineal Champion??
     
    Longhhorn71, Jul 26, 2016
    Longhhorn71, Jul 26, 2016
    #2
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,178
    Sep 15, 2009
    **** totally forgot about him! He's right up there.
     
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    #3
  4. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,770
    18,669
    Jun 25, 2014
    Vitali was named The RING champion after beating Corrie Sanders and was presented with the RING championship belt. So, technically, he was a lineal champ.
     
    Dubblechin, Jul 26, 2016
    Dubblechin, Jul 26, 2016
    #4
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,371
    48,746
    Mar 21, 2007
    Harry Wills
    Sam Langford
    Ken Norton
    Peter Jackson
    Vitali Klitschko
    Joe Jennette
    Sam McVey
    Elmer Ray
    Jimmy Young
    Tim Witherspoon
    Jimmy Ellis
    Ernie Terrell
    Archie Moore
    Tom Sharkey
    Jimmy Bivins
    Harold Johnson
    Zora Folley
    Jerry Quarry
    Eddie Machen
    Ron Lyle
    Harry Greb
    Bob Pastor
    Chris Byrd
    Tommy Loughran
    Ernie Schaaf
    Earnie Shaversr
    Pinklon Thomas
    Kid Norfolk
    Billy Miske

    That's kind of a list of guys relative to their compadres. Difficult to know how they'd come out head-to-head.
     
    McGrain, Jul 26, 2016
    McGrain, Jul 26, 2016
    #5
  6. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,178
    Sep 15, 2009
    I gave a definition of lineal in the opening line, please defer all lineal queries to that sentence and then return to the topic at hand :good
     
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    #6
  7. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,178
    Sep 15, 2009
    Archie Moore has an underrated HW resume and was probably the number 1 HW in the world when Patterson beat him.
     
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    #7
  8. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,770
    18,669
    Jun 25, 2014
    It does refer to the definition you gave. He was named Lineal Champ after Lennox Lewis retired.

    Sanders had just destroyed Wlad. Vitali was the number-one contender. Lewis retired.

    The RING announced the winner of Vitali-Sanders would be the new lineal champ.

    Vitali won. He was presented with the RING title.

    Just like Floyd Patterson was when Marciano retired and Patterson beat Moore. Just like Joe Frazier was when Ali was retired and Frazier beat Ellis.

    Why are you not aware of this?

    Vitali, circa 2004, with the RING belt around his waist.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0dIyZ4-OJ...AAAOY/PJzj063MRqk/s320/vitali-klitschko67.jpg
     
    Dubblechin, Jul 26, 2016
    Dubblechin, Jul 26, 2016
    #8
  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,178
    Sep 15, 2009
    Just like Jones Jr was at LHW as well. I'm not debating the definition, just refer to the opening sentence.

    Who do you think is the best man to never be lineal (by the definition presented in the opening sentence)
     
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    #9
  10. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,770
    18,669
    Jun 25, 2014
    Well, since Vitali Klitschko WAS the lineal champ (according to the publication that names lineal champs), I wouldn't pick him.

    Nearly all the other guys mentioned in this thread fought the best and all lost to them.

    I'd have to go with some guys who didn't lose or haven't lost yet.

    Given the list McGrain posted with Ernie Terrell, Tom Sharkey, Harry Greb and those guys on it ...

    I'd go with more recent heavyweights.

    Let's say Ike Ibeabuchi, Deontay Wilder and Anthony Joshua for starters.
     
    Dubblechin, Jul 26, 2016
    Dubblechin, Jul 26, 2016
    #10
  11. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,178
    Sep 15, 2009
    If the name of the label bothers you so just refer to the definition I gave.

    Out of all the HW fighters who didn't beat the man of the division nor win a match between the 1 and 2 ranked fighters (ranked by ring mag) who do you think the best was?

    My pick is Vitali.

    Joshua and Wilder might well hold the crown if they defeat Fury so I'd defer judgement of them.

    Ibeabuchi had tremendous potential and reminded me a bit of Bowe, he could have been something special, but I wouldn't pick him over Vitali.
     
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    #11
  12. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,770
    18,669
    Jun 25, 2014
    I wouldn't pick him over Vitali, either, but VITALI WAS THE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION.

    RING MAGAZINE named Vitali Klitschko the LINEAL, RING CHAMP after Lewis retired and Vitali beat Sanders.

    You keep stating your definition of who was a lineal champ ... and then naming a guy who meets your definition as the best who never was.

    Why do you keep doing that?:roll::patsch
     
    Dubblechin, Jul 26, 2016
    Dubblechin, Jul 26, 2016
    #12
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,371
    48,746
    Mar 21, 2007
    Dubblechin - who do you think was the best fighter to have beaten the lineal champion when he was in possession of the lineal title, OR who beat the #1 heavyweight as ranked by Ring magazine whilst the #2 ranked by ring magazine, or beat the #2 heavyweight as ranked by Ring magazine while the #1 ranked by ring magazine at a time when no lineal heavyweight champion was in possession of that title?
     
    McGrain, Jul 26, 2016
    McGrain, Jul 26, 2016
    #13
  14. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,178
    Sep 15, 2009
    :lol: I'm not so sure why he is struggling with this.
     
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    lufcrazy, Jul 26, 2016
    #14
  15. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,770
    18,669
    Jun 25, 2014
    I'd take Ike Ibeabuchi, Deontay Wilder and Anthony Joshua over Jimmy Ellis or Ernie Terrell or Jimmy Bivins or Tom Sharkey or any of the others who never were world champ any day of the week.

    Ibeabuchi, Wilder and Joshua have never been the RING champ, and they've never beaten the best.

    But I feel they are among the best never to named the REAL World Heavyweight Champion.

    I don't know who the best is among those three.

    Vitali Klitschko was named the WORLD champ by RING ... if you are using RING as your expert criteria. So I don't include him.

    Ellis wasn't named RING champ. Terrell wasn't. Lyle wasn't. Vitali WAS.
     
    Dubblechin, Jul 26, 2016
    Dubblechin, Jul 26, 2016
    #15
Page 1 of 10