Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

Did he quit against Marshall when he had his jaw broken? :think

 

Comes down to guts. Let's not forget that Sonny could also be cut, and Marciano was known to sometimes inflict serious facial damage himself. Rocky was never bothered by the sight of his own blood, except in Charles II, where he quickly wiped out Ezz like Hagler dispatched Hearns. Marciano's blood also only served to spur him on against Moore. Same can't be said for Liston, who lost composure and flinched frequently against a one armed Machen.

Rocky has a very serious hand speed advantage over Sonny, and the same low profile Patterson had fleeting success ducking underneath Liston with. Marciano would also be seeing everything Sonny unloaded his way.

The more I watch Liston-Machen and Machen-Nino Valdes II, the more convinced I am that Eddie not only defeats Sonny in Seattle with two healthy guns, but possibly stops Liston. By the way, Valdes had Liston's right eye closed after the opening round of Nino's penultimate bout, while Marciano's hook forced a stoppage of Big Bill Wilson with a deep cut over Wilson's left eye less than two minutes into the first round, a cut Rocky inflicted on JJW blinded Jersey to the title changing knockout punch. We've all seen how Marciano swelled up Archie's right eye and battered Ezzard's head into a swollen mess their first time around.

It's by no means any given that fight winning facial damage is inflicted by Liston in this one, not by the way he was compromised in response to shedding his own blood in losing the title, or in suddenly crumbling against Leotis in round eight. George Johnson and Machen suggest Rocky would either hold his ground or make Sonny concede to movement.

What Ali shows me is that Liston never had the speed to compete with him. Whitehurst tells me Sonny might have had a lot of trouble with Pastrano, and wouldn't be able to catch Willie for a stoppage either. But Machen really wanted a rematch with Liston carrying two good arms for a change, and looking at Valdes II, I suspect Sonny wanted no part of Eddie during his reign.

Moore said about Marciano what Larry Holmes said about Tex Cobb, not that Rocky was the hardest puncher, but definitely the physically strongest opponent he ever fought in his long career, and Archie successfully dealt with bigger heavyweights than Liston. Marciano was no Patterson, and Marshall, Summerlin, Whitehurst, Machen, Joiner and Martin proved throughout Sonny's entire career that sub 200 pounders could not only hang with Liston, but sometimes improve on earlier showings in rematches, as Marshall, Summerlin and Joiner did.

Archie Moore was asked by ringside physician Vincent Nardiello if the Mongoose wanted to quit following round eight with Rocky. Arch repeated the same sentiment which made Braddock such a hero against Louis, that he was a champion, and that no champion should lose except in the center of the ring, not sitting in a corner, but "carried out on his shield." (In seven career stoppage defeats, that's exactly how Moore lost.)

George Johnson was 5'9" and not defensively elusive, so we have the visual of somebody shorter than Marciano who an aging Sonny is retreating against. Yes, Liston is 132 years old at this stage, but that's not the Rock he's in there with either. We also have the visual of Machen buckling, making Sonny flinch, and backing him into the ropes and corners at moments with a single hand containing power.

Sonny's going to try unloading straight shots from long range while retreating to optimize his reach, as he did with Johnson, but a crouching Marciano with indefatigably upraised arms and defensive alertness would be no kind of punching bag for such relatively slow punches coming from so far a distance, and when the waiting game of early rounds has passed into having to make a fight of it, I believe Liston would discover he'd expended himself too much in the early rounds with his reverse gear to prevail late. He wasn't Foreman with shoving tactics, but actually a pretty clean boxer. Rocky wasn't.

Liston lost composure with Machen as Eddie got under his skin with trash talking, hitting on the break, roughing Sonny up by spinning him around in clinches, and other tactics letting Liston know that the mentally ill Machen was in no way afraid or intimidated by Sonny. Marciano was also very composed in ring temperament, and very proficient at following through hard punches with his elbows. Rocky's posture was also great for shielding him from low blows, having a trainer who competed in the jungle of bare knuckle mentor retirees.

Foreman was a throwback in many respects Liston was not. Big George essentially stopped Qawi on the strength of an illegal kidney punch knockdown Foreman was penalized for. So what? He never went into a bout looking to win a decision anyways. As long as it led to a stoppage win w/out him first being disqualified, or if a round lost to a low blow hampered the victim so much as to lose subsequent rounds for a decision win, then like Tex Cobb said, "We're in there to raise hell, and the referee's only job is to count to ten."

Both Marciano and Liston were not guys to be messed with on the street, but only one really brought the street into the ring, and that was Rocky.

Entering double digit rounds, Sonny would likely have the lead over Marciano that Rocky had to overcome in JJW I and Charles I. But an aged Liston did succumb to Leotis Martin after accumulating a huge lead, and would have been in serious trouble later if Henry Clark had the punch to hurt him. Looking at him against a hampered Machen in September 1960 after 12 rounds, that won't be enough against a prime Marciano with fully developed hook. Rocky will probably need to take him out to win during the double digit rounds. He will succeed.

 

A fractured jaw can be a tricky thing, depending on the severity of the break, variations in pain tolerance, and so forth. Ali said his jaw was a dull throbbing ache against Norton, rather than a sharp excruciating pain. Some Olympic athletes think they merely have a pulled stomach muscle when it turns out they actually have appendicitis.

My father is pain wracked with gout and arthritis, expressly states that he is NOT a tough man, yet when he had his gall bladder removed in the mid 1970's (when it was a major invasive procedure before laparoscopy), his surgical team discovered that he had a major bout of appendicitis at one point which healed itself. He's not sure when this might have happened. (By the way, not all cases of appendicitis result in a high temperature. My mother's temperature never went above 98.6, and she returned to the clinic later in the day to get properly diagnosed and have it removed after they told her that morning to just take a couple aspirins.)

Ali's jaw was so swollen it was taken for granted that Frazier had broken it with the KD punch in the FOTC, but that wasn't the case. Conversely, there was no visible evidence after Norton I that Ali had sustained such a fracture, and I think Pacheco's correct about Norton's overhand right in round two producing that break, based on the action footage and how Ali was being administered to in his corner after round two onward.

Liston's impassivity and deterrent potential probably helped against an opponent who was not a noted puncher, even though six of Sonny's first seven bouts had entered the final round at that early stage, with five of those going to the final bell. Marshall was a ten round veteran with 25 bouts of experience dating back over eight years of training for professional competition, while Liston was in his rookie year of punch for pay. Despite Sonny's greater size, he was over-matched against a more experienced and physically mature opponent who would knock out Satterfield in two before squaring off with Liston a second time.

You want a guy with guts who didn't quit, you can have Frazier, who won the Olympics with a broken left thumb he told nobody about, as well as a left eye which had some pieces of metal fly into it from an old speed bag. An obese kid with high blood pressure and arthritis before he ever got out of his 20's, he had all kinds of excuses for dying young, yet alone losing sports competitions. Still, he was the first one up on the starting blocks for the ABC Superstars competition in the swimming event he almost drowned in. Sonny Liston was deathly afraid of hypodermic needles. If the Superstars competition had a dart or arrow catching contest, Smokin' Joe might have been the first athlete to try winning it.

During the opening round of their rematch, Jerry Quarry accidentally hit Frazier low, and immediately reeled back in agony with his gloves over his eyes, because he broke his left hand on Joe's steel testicles. Marciano was also a pretty tough guy, when you factor in his grueling training regimen with the fact of how bad his back was. Even after his retirement from boxing, he opted to forgo surgery on his back (prudent, considering how back surgery nearly killed JFK), and then, despite that bad back, got himself into shape with heavy training for his staged bout with Ali.

 

Or when Cleveland Williams broke his nose?
Or when Valdes closed his eye?

 

Liston was cut how many times?
Marciano was cut against
Schkor
Simmons ,in danger of being stopped
Charles1
Charles 2 ,in danger of being stopped
Louis
Moore
Walcott 1

Marshall won the first Liston fight when after breaking Liston's jaw he took a decision ,he was floored7 times for a tko loss in their second fight and didn't win a round in their 3 rd and last encounter ,how did he do better?
When I look at this matchup I ask myself can Marciano win at long range? The answer for me is no.
I then ask can he win at close range ?The answer is possibly.
Given that Liston is 25lbs heavier and hits just as hard if not harder, I then ask myself is he likely to ?
The answer I get is no.

 

I don't believe the underlined has any basis in fact.
Here is Liston v Machen ,he looks just as quick as Marciano to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urexRNMC9_w

Machen just fought to survive and the score cards confirm the fact that Liston was comfortable winner.
119-112 judges: Ely Caston 118-114, Sam Heller 118-116



btw. Machen threw plenty of right hands ,no way was he "one-handed " in that fight.
Liston said Valdes thumbed him.
After getting his eye shut Liston went after Valdes and took him out I'd say that is commendable or does that only apply when Marciano pulled the fat out of the fire?
Machen was not mentally ill when he fought Liston, they fought in1960.Machen had a nervous collapse in 1963
3 years later..
I see nothing in Machen's record to suggest he could stop Liston ,even with three arms

Do you want to speculate how a Marciano the same age
as Liston was against Clark and Martin would do in Sonny's place?

 

:nono

 

I agree,marciano was pretty slow i cant see any speed advantage in the side of rocky here

 

This is a 50/50 fight. Either liston tko's Marciano or Marciano knocks out liston. Liston should win this fight,however if you stood up to Liston he always struggled like in the Machen fight ,he also lost to a 175 pounder and was also floored and broke Sonnys jaw and struggled rematches against him " cant think of his name" ,so that tells you Marciano does have a shot here.Liston always controlled the fight with the jab and liked to keep his opponent outwards in mid range,could Marciano force an inside battle and if he did then what?

Liston is going to ware down and mentally break or Marciano is going to get out muscled and eventually go down himself so its a pick'em despite listons size advantage . Its basically determination vs size and skills. Speed isn't much a factor as is length,but Marciano could slip under jabs and get in to slower footed guys.


Im not sure on this one as a betting man I would pick Marciano, based on liston relied on overwhelming his guy,a little challenge might dissuade him......


Marciano late rnds knock out win.

 

Liston didn't struggle with guys who stood up to him watch the Williams fights and the DeJohn one.
Liston had no problem in the 2 rematches with Marshall ,he stopped him in the second and won every round in the 3rd fight when Marshall ran like a thief.

Why does an inside fight favour Marciano ,which smaller swarmers gave Liston trouble?

 

Williams was winning the fight before he got caught.

Its not about inside pressure its pressure in general,rocky would eventually land a clear shot on him and we don't know what would happen and I think this would happen before liston hurt Marciano.Didnt Marshal knock him down in the rematch?

Liston never fought a guy willing to go head on with him other than Marshal who caused problems. Liston also fired sparring partners his own size who made him work and challenged him,thats a sighn of mental weakness that Marciano could exploit.

In real time since these two could have potentially fought,marciano would have won im sure,Liston was still green and Marciano was a threat with experience under him.....only the improved liston who got experience late 50's would have a better shot at defeating the Rock.

 

Liston by KO - No problem

 

Liston went head to head with Williams and DeJohn. Marshall won 1 of the 3 fights with Liston by split dec,when he broke Sonny's jaw you keep saying he caused problems he didn't he got his a*se torn open, read the fight reports.
In the 1st Williams fight Williams took the 1st rd Liston the 2nd
In the 2nd Fight Liston was up on the cards

Do you think Marciano hit harder than Williams,or DeJohn?

Which sparring partners did Liston fire?
This isn't the General Lounge, you're expected to know what you're talking about here.

 

Jim Brown vs. Rudy.

 

Physics 1
Marciano 0