James Toney. Under-rated?

I do not know that about that. Toney's accomplishment to move up as a middlweight and establish himself as a legimate heavyweight contender is extremely rare if not non-existent in our modern days. In my view that cements his ATG status.

Discssions like that also hinge on your definition of an ATG. I would call an ATG one of the best 100 boxers that ever lived (which is in line with the RING standards which by the way included Toney in that list).

Now, if you want the limit the cercle to let's says the TOP 50 ATG, you may have a valid reason to exclude Toney.

 

Contender at HW yet he won a main strap?

Sounds like someone has got an agenda against JT, IMO...

 

James Toney's heavyweight achievements are being slightly overrated.

Don't get me wrong, it's impressive and fascinating seeing a guy with a middleweight-frame bloated up on doughnuts and steroids, fighting at age 36 and 37 with good handspeed and skills against real heavyweights, taking heavyweight shots too.

But the heavyweights he beat were not that good. I mean, really his resume consists of that dsputed first fight 'loss' to Sam Peter (let's call that a win for Toney) ..... on the other hand, I thought Toney was lucky to get a draw against Rahman in his previous fight ....... and the 12-round decision over John Ruiz which was changed to a DQ because Toney took too many steroids he couldn't even pass the test, and a TKO against a shot Holyfield.

I guess if you don't mind the PEDs and include the Ruiz fight, that's his best win at heavyweight.
But it was no surprise to see Ruiz lose to a former middleweight ... again.

Toney looked best against Holyfield, but I'm really not sure how much that was due to Holyfield being shot.
I mean, Holyfield was coming off the Ruiz trilogy and the loss to Byrd, and needed shoulder surgery. He went on to lose badly to Larry Donald.

 

I don't care about "main strap".
Charles Martin had a main strap a few months ago, and he's lucky if he'll even be remembered as a contender.

 

If Ali and Leonard are overrated then the rest better go home....

 

I agree

 

Being past prime and beating a titel holder several divisions over your best? Yes, that's comparable since it is what Duran did as well, even if you would have the Barkley win higher.

Beating much, much larger fighters like Rahman and Peter (I gave him wins over both) as well as Holy is something very special. And Rahman threw some 100 punches the last round. Only a very, very fit 237 lbs man will do that.

 

It's definitely interesting seeing different perspectives on what it takes to be an ATG.
Personally I wouldn't necessarily exclude Toney from being classed as an 'all-time great' but I'd put a lot of fighters from his own era ahead of him, and men who were in the same weight classes too.

I like his move from middle to heavy but I'm not sure that would be reason to rate him highly.
Jimmy Ellis's move from middle (where he was probably matched too tough too soon) to heavy is more impressive, and few people are singing Ellis's praises as an ATG.

 

If ATG has to be top 100 of all-time pound-for-pound then I might have to exclude Toney.
I don't think he'd make the top 100.

 

He ended up at #97 on the thread McGrain started a few years ago. So he scra.pes in there, for what it's worth :

[url]http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=459918[/url]

 

The RING also had him between TOP 90-TOP100 ATG . And that was before the Ruiz, Rahman and Peter fights.

 

Which major belt did he win?

 

I've made it very clear that I think the quality of the wins are more significant than the mere fact they both went up through divisions.

People will assess the relative 'special-ness' of Toney's exploits at Heavyweight for themselves. And, if you are prepared to overturn decisions in your own mind and discount the fact Holyfield was done then you're likely to think much more highly of them than perhaps others might.

 

Roy Jones Jr taking one fight to win a wide UD against a live Heavyweight for a major strap is more impressive than a persistent, obese middleweight, continuously knocking at the door for a Title Shot and failing - for whatever reason.

How legitimate was Toney's contention, given he tested twice for a banned substance, during his time at Heavyweight? Even putting that aside - If his legitimacy as a contender, relies on his win against Holyfield, who had no reason to be considered a top-10 Heavyweight by that point, then it is questionable.

 

Ellis were the one I was hinting at earlier.

But I'm intrigued by why he ever was a MW. He clearly was a natural HW for that time (CW today). At 190 against Ali he looked like he'd cut too much. And since his record was teorilektion at 160, it seems like a fair conclusion that that was not a suitable weight. He looked and performed his best around 200 lbs.