James Toney. Under-rated?

One version has Ellis putting on the weight simply by having his tonsils removed, the other by eating more. Pacheco called the transformation one of the most dramatic he had seen. Maybe he was an early version of Vander/Toney

 

- I disagree once again. I certainly do believe that Toney's body of work at heavyweight (Holyfield, Ruiz, Rahman Peter I, Guinn, Oquendo) is more impressive than the one win for Jones.

- He does not only rely on his win against Holyfield. Anyway, you do not seem to put into perspective that we are talking about a 5ft10 middlweight in his mid to late 30s.

 

Yes - we all know he was an old, short, fat middleweight. So what? He was also caught using the same Performance Enhancing Drug, twice - over the course of two years.

He didn't get the 'W' over Ruiz (because of PED use), Rahman or Peter (the latter two opponents being faced in between the two positive tests for Nandrolone).

As I've stated in a previous post - Toney's heavyweight run will be assessed by individuals, as they see fit.

 

So polarizing, disdain, adulation and not very much in the middle. Glad i am in the middle with no horse in this particular race.

 

But got to keep his Afro.

 

I wonder if Toney would be included in a top 10 pound-for-pound of the 1990s.

 

I think Toney is generally underrated by most on boxing forums... but if the standard is being among the top10 ATG during the last 30 years... I don't know if he really is underrated.

I mean there are certainly arguments to be made why he fits in there. But there are also arguments as to why he shouldn't be. He absolutely is an ATG, that is out of discussion. But should he be ranked so high?

As The Blade pointed out, his move from MW to HW while being competitive and having at least 1 big win in every division (except at LHW where he didn't have that big win) is something that has only been matched by Duran during the last 30 years. And I wouldn't count Roy Jones one-off stunt at HW as high as this feat.

Toney was dominant only a short time at MW and at SMW, but he stayed very active there, racking up a pile of good to great wins in that short time. Also, his comeback in 2003 was one of the very best comebacks in the last 30 years.

Toney was rightfully seen as the #2 P4P fighter in a very strong era, before his loss to Jones. And Jones has claimed that Toney, though he beat him rather easily it seemed, was his best and toughest opponent inside the ring. Ahead of B-Hop. That should tell you something. Marvin Hagler said that Toney was the best MW to come after him, and Eubanks Sr. even put Toney as the best MW ever! Regardless if these claims are exaggerated or not, it should give you a glimpse of how highly other HOF or ATG boxers are regarding Toney.

There are of course also the PEDs, the loss to Thadzi, the continuous weight problems... all of which can be used against him.
We all know that Toney never reached his full potential due to reasons outside the ring, but this shouldn't be a factor here.

Had Toney gotten the wins he deserved against Montell Griffith twice, and especially against Sam Peter... who knows what would have followed? But who knows what would have happened if he had lost to Tiberi on the cards?

Toney has an excellent resume, and a true old-school career. There may or may not have been 10 fighters these last 30 years to be put ahead of him when it comes to P4P greatness, that is open to what you rate in a fighter. There are especially fighters at lighter weights that tend to get overlooked more often than Toney in that regard.

What surely is undebatable though is that Toney is one of the toughest and most skilled fighters to ever lace em up. He is also an underachiever, despite his great record. Unfortunately he could have made more out of his career, and we wouldn't need to have a discussion like this one if only he'd have been more disciplined...

 

So now you are implying that only the W relevant.Well, Duran did not get the W over Hagler either and that decision was not even debatable.So by your own standards that performance should not be held in high regards then.

Also it seems that you try to downplay Toney's role at a heavyweight. But the reality is Jones did not have the chin to do it, Tarver was not good enough, Hopkins did not have the ***** to move up to cruiserweight.This is not to criticize them but to show that Toney did something special.Back in the 90s when Toney was talking about moving up to heavyy, everbody thought he was crazy (including myself)

 

I think many miss that perspective. After the fact it doesn't seem such a big deal after a while and people tend to forget how far fetched the thought seemed to begin with.

Just imagine the thought of Golovkin going up to face HW contenders/titlists and beating them... Even allowing for him using PEDs it seems very far fetched, and he has about the same dimensions as Toney. I can't see Ward do it either.

 

Agreed.:good Although I have to admit Toney could have achieved more at heavy without any injuries and had he been more disciplined.

 

As I've stated in a previous post - Toney's heavyweight run will be assessed by individuals, as they see fit.

Fore sure, Toney's move up to the Cruiser and Heavyweight divisions is a credit to him. He showed a certain steel and baIIs of solid rock (or craziness) to go there. I think everyone; proponents and detractors alike, get that. But, I'm not going to let you try and tell me that he won fights, which he officially did not. Especially the Ruiz bout and not Rahman bouts, either.

I can't help but notice that you ignore his testing positive for PEDs. This has to take away from him and what he did at Heavyweight, win or lose, surely?

And, why are you bringing Duran into this again? I thought we'd already covered the fact that, in defeat to Hagler, it was a loss to the then prime, Undisputed Middleweight Champion of the world and now a Top-5 MW of all time. Where's the comparison?

 

I think he's overrated when people talk about his skills. Footwork is one of the least appreciated but most important skills to have, and Toney was lacking. If you gave him Ward's footwork and kept him in shape, you'd be looking at one of the best ever. Instead, he was worse than Ward.

Ps Roy was extremely skilled. Some of you are idiots.

 

And his first fight at heavyweight was against Evander ****ing Holyfield. I think Toney did very well at heavy, given his size and age. It's too bad the PED use cost him a title.

 

It's fair to be amazed or highly impressed by what little James Toney did at heavyweight but I don't think it makes him a better fighter 'pound for pound', whatever that means. This is one of the areas where the p4p concept is possibly exposed as nonsense. It's not as if Toney was 160 or 168 pounds when he went in with Sam Peter and John Ruiz. He was a 'roided, bulked version, a 230 pound fighter. His success at heavyweight doesn't make him any better at 168, 175 and 190 when he was younger. He has too many mediocre efforts there and a lack of dominance. Therefore, whatever he did at heavyweight (and let's not overrate that) doesn't indicate an increased 'pound for pound' rating. But of course, the p4p concept is so vague and contradictory I'd have as much trouble proving this case as someone else trying to prove me wrong.