James Toney. Under-rated?

Success at higher weight divisions certainly enhances their ATG rating.

 

I meant who over-rates him? Most people have him outside their top 10 for the 90's. Nobody even rates him high 2000 and on.

 

I do not know exactly what you mean by pound for pound rating but I think I see your point there.

However, there seems little doubt Toney's fights at heavyweight enhance his legacy. In my view,it even solidifies his legacy as an ATG but not everybody seems to agree with that here.

 

ANY success enhances a fighter's rating.

But success at higher weight divisions doesn't make a fighter better in their "natural" weight division.

If a man's unbeatable in the lower divisions that's a different matter. The success in higher division might underline that somewhat.

 

Vinny Pazienza was a 'major titlist' in at least two divisions, a rated contender in 5 divisions, 135, 140, 154, 160 and 168, and he actually skipped 147 if I remember rightly, so that's ACROSS SIX DIVISIONS.

How great does that make Vinny Pazienza really ?

 

I think the fights at heavyweight enhance his legacy too. Beating world rated contenders always should enhance a legacy.
And at 36 years old Toney had a nice little late career spurt of success there.

My point would be he'd have enhances his legacy the same if he'd done a lot better at 168 , or 175 - 190 or whatever was his 'natural weight' in the years of the late 1990s.

 

Not great. I do not believe that Pac was viewed as a Top Contender above 140. He fought for meaningless titles in those divisions and had hardly any meaningful fights.

 

Agreed. Ideally, Toney would have gotten the decison against Griffin and then won the IBF light heavyweight. That would have significantly enhanced his legacy. Instead Toney was badly advised to defend his meaningless WBU title at light heavyweight which kept him out of the rankings of the major bodies at the time.

 

Yep.

And matchmaking. Lets face it, they were not going to accept a guy with legs like a Larry Donald as an opponent. Toney would be 2 or 3 steps behind the guy let alone an opponent that will not exchange. That's what Toney needs as well at heavy or even cruiser... a guy that will exchange.


It kind of ties in with a theory f mine that started lets say in the late 70's.....heavyweights consistently underprepaing for a guy moving up in weight.

So many examples of this & I think it relates to how a guy like Chris Byrd had such a wonderful career. The existing heavy does not bother to get razor sharp and pretty much does a half-assed training camp. They just figure no guy moving up is going to do well with them. Even a guy like Ademek had success and who really bought into him as a lh anyway?

Come fight night, they do not handle the speed of that guy moving up. They're quicker. But the old heavywieght looking for an easy payday has a much tougher fight on his hands. So very few blowouts like Tyson--Spinks. A lot more spinks--****ey.

Not many folks gave Toney much of a chance against Evander on what might be his best night ever. Great fight. But it sure was not a great night for Evander and he looked like he brought in his C game and not even his B game. But on that night, he was going to need his A game and that B effort probably would not be good enough for the W, but perhaps avoids the ko defeat.

 

RING magazine rated him in the top 3 at light-middleweight and held the WBA title there.
RING had him in the top 10 at middleweight.
RING had him as high as number 5 at super-middleweight.

 

References to James Toney's 'greatness' are littered all over boxing forums; you'll see him bigged up on youtube; bloggers and pretend sportswriters will often include him in their greatest this or that lists. (I recently saw him listed second in a 'greatest defensive boxers' list on some page-filler digest type site)

Professional Sports Writer's, in the main, handle Toney as a boxing topic quite fairly. Although, Kellerman did a piece for ESPN, after the Toney/Holy bout (one presumes in 2003), which I recall being apologist and a bit over the top, at that.

 

Amazing

 

Maybe Vinny Pazienza needs to be re-assessed. If moving up weights with some success is a great enhancer of legacy he needs to be looked at.
I do believe he took steroids, his physique change was incredible. But if anyone deserves a pass for 'roids, it's Vinny, since he did break his back or neck in a car crash in 1991. Although I note he was already WBA champion at 154 then, and may or may not have been 'roided.

His natural weight division must be regarded as 135 and 140, so even 154 is significant.

 

.... and in his orinal weight class, lightweight, he was rated at number 2 behind Julio-Cesar Chavez at lightweight in 1987.

 

Yes but nothing like beating quality fighters at higher weights, let alone much higher weights.