Jeffries v Rocky's Challengers?

So you really don't defer to these "experts" when it comes to Johnson versus Jeffries.

Seems a rather blatant double standard to ask someone else to defer to to them concerning Marciano versus Jeffries.

"I can't speak for Callis, but I can quote him."

And I can consider his viewpoint ultra-superficial. Marciano put together a better record than Jeffries in my judgment, let alone Sharkey.

Even the three defeats to the age of 27 argument relies on the goofy result of the first Fitz fight. But Sharkey fell apart at 27, or possibly just ran into better fighters in Fitz and Ruhlin than he had been fighting (other than Jeffries). Fitz, after all, had also dominated Sharkey in 1896, and Ruhlin, while in fairness earlier ko'd by Sharkey, was a real heavyweight rather than a middle (McCoy) or a super-middle (Choynski).

Sharkey followed the second Jeffries fight with six straight ko victories before running into Ruhlin and Fitz.

 

"$200,000 is a lot of tickets"

No doubt, but Fleischer and Rose were teenagers--and Odd not yet born--when this film was probably making the rounds. Just seeing a championship fight on a big screen probably awed them.

You simply have no evidence any of these men saw Jeffries fight when they were older and better able to evaluate what they were seeing.

And while I think it likely that boys interested in boxing would have gone to this movie, we don't even know that for certain.

 

Morgan was the first man you have named who was old enough to see Jeffries in his prime and have enough experience to make a fair evaluation.

But he died while Marciano was still active. I certainly wouldn't make an all-time judgment of a still active fighter. I have learned my lesson from what happened to "supermen" Foreman and Tyson against Ali & Young and Douglas.

So it is a lot to ask for Morgan to jump Marciano over Jeffries mid-career.

Also, Morgan was a very old man by the Marciano era. Was he still mentally alert?

While I don't think Morgan's opinion means much concerning Jeff versus Marciano, he is one of those that could have seen both Jeffries and Dempsey in their primes and thought Jeffries better, and for those inclined to defer to "expert" opinion, this is one which might mean something.

 

some other ratings

Boxing writers of America (about 1980)

Marciano--#3
Johnson--#5
Jeffries--not in the five rated.

Ebony poll of black sportswriters (late 1970's)

Johnson--#3
Marciano--#5
Jeffries--not in the top ten rated

AP end of the century panel of experts

Marciano--#3
Johnson--#5
Jeffries--not in the ten rated

Ring Magazine 1999

Marciano--#6
Johnson--#9
Jeffries--#12

 

just on Dumb Dan Morgan and his expert opinion--I looked up and found his top ten in 1943

Jeffries is #1

but what interested me is #8 and #9.

#8----Jimmy Braddock
#9----Gene Tunney

Braddock over Tunney!

Hard to figure how he got there.

 

Ed, please explain to me how do you know Jeffries wasn't seen my the names I mentioned?

It doesn't wash. Jeffries was filmed a few times.

As for rankings, there was an old timer survey in the 1950's consisting of men who saw lots of stuff and had access to first hand testimonials. It was called the McCalum survey and 12 people votes. Jeffries cane out #1.

 

Regarding ranking, how about the fighters?

Corbett, Langford, Burns, Dempsey, Jeannette, Sharkey and others all felt Jeffries was #1. There were there. Johnson called him Jeffries greatest. Were all these guys wrong? I tend to doubt it.


Jeffries was ranked 1-5 for the most part until the 1960's. Then those who saw him in most cases passed and the films disappeared.




Jim Corbett (circa 1925)
Heavyweight Champion of the World (1892-1897)
Quoted in: Gentlemen Jim Corbett: The Truth Behind a Boxing Legend, Patrick Myler (p. 190).

1-Peter Jackson, Jim Jeffries
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-John L. Sullivan
5-Frank Slavin, Jack Dempsey
7-Sam Langford
8-Jack Johnson
9-Jess Willard
10-Tom Sharkey, Harry Wills
12-Charlie Mitchell, Kid McCoy
14-Jake Kilrain


Tommy Burns (circa 1928)
Heavyweight Champion of the World (1906-1908)
Quoted in: The Legendary Champions (1968) [video documentary], written & directed by Harry Chapin
1-Jim Jeffries
2-Jack Johnson
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-Jack Dempsey
5-Jim Corbett
6-Gene Tunney
7-Philadelphia Jack O’Brien
8-Jess Willard

Harry B. Smith of San Francisco Chronicle had a poll of boxing experts from around the USA in March 1936 that ended as follows:
1. Bob Fitzsimmons
2. James J. Jeffries
3. Joe Louis
4. James J. Corbett
5. Gene Tunney
6. Jack Dempsey
7. John L. Sullivan
8. Jack Johnson
9. Peter Jackson
10. Sam Langford


David Willoughby (1970)
Author of The Super Athletes
[revealed in private correspondence with IBRO historian Tracy G. Callis]

1-Jim Jeffries
2-Jack Dempsey
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-Jack Johnson
5-Jim Corbett
6-Gene Tunney
7-Joe Louis
8-Rocky Marciano




Dumb Dan Morgan (circa 1950)
Fight manager, trainer
Quoted in: The Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions, John D. McCallum (pp. 46-47)
1-Jim Jeffries
2-John L. Sullivan
3-Jack Johnson
4-Bob Fitzsimmons
5-Jim Corbett
6-Gene Tunney
7-Jack Dempsey
8-Joe Louis


"Survey of Old-Timers" (1975)
The Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions , John D. McCallum. Pannell of 12 voters, includingNat F. (pp. 322-323)
1-Jim Jeffries
2-Jack Johnson
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-Jim Corbett
5-Jack Dempsey
6-John L. Sullivan
7-Gene Tunney
8-Joe Louis
9-Rocky Marciano
10-Muhammad Ali



The Ring Editors (Nat Loubet, Editor-n-Chief) (1975)
The Ring (March 1975, pp. 28-30)
1-Joe Louis
2-Jack Dempsey
3-Jim Jeffries
4-Jack Johnson
5-Rocky Marciano
6-Gene Tunney
7-Bob Fitzsimmons
8-Jim Corbett


"Survey of Old-Timers" (1975)
The Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions , John D. McCallum (pp. 322-323)
1-Jim Jeffries
2-Jack Johnson
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-Jim Corbett
5-Jack Dempsey
6-John L. Sullivan
7-Gene Tunney
8-Joe Louis


John D. McCallum (1977)
Author of The Heavyweight Championship (1974), The Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions (1975)
[revealed in private correspondence with IBRO historian Tracy G. Callis]

1-Jack Dempsey
2-Joe Louis
3-Jim Jeffries
4-Jack Johnson
5-Bob Fitzsimmons
6-Jim Corbett
7-John L. Sullivan
8-Gene Tunney
9-Rocky Marciano
10-Muhammad Ali

 

Neither one of us know for certain who did and didn't see this film.

My point is if one see fighter A as a teenager (in film or live) and sees fighter B fifty years later, how valuable is a comparison relying on a fifty year old memory?

 

here is the list of Dumb Dan Morgan printed in the Gettysburg Times, March 16, 1943

1-----Jim Jeffries
2-----Jim Corbett
3-----Jack Dempsey
4-----Bob Fitzsimmons
5-----John L. Sullivan
6-----Jack Johnson
7-----Joe Louis
8-----Jim Braddock
9-----Gene Tunney
10----Max Schmeling
11----Tommy Burns
12----Jack Sharkey
13----Max Baer
14----Primo Carnera
15----Jess Willard

 

My point is the fighters were they from 1890-1925. They pretty much all say Jeffries was the best. Agreed?

The second point, as historians who lived from 1890 to Marciano likely saw the films that were out there and had access to first-hand testimonials. This is only logical. We don't know when they saw him, it could have been in their 30's to 60's.

Third point, the old timer survey with 12 men taken in the 1950's had Jeffries #1

Lastly, By 1960's, Jeffries was pretty much out of sight out of mind. Most boxing people by that time had little access to his films. When there is very little film on a boxer and very limited film on your opponents, you're mostly forgotten in boxing. That's just how it goes. See Sullivan or Jackson, who according to those that saw rated above Jack Johnson in some cases.


Regarding the teenager comment.

As a youth, I saw Micheal Jordan. I haven't seen a basketball player as good since and 25 years have passed. When I'm 50 we'll see if my opinion changes, but like Jeffries the players who saw Jordan pretty much agree he was the best.

As a youth, I saw the great Neil Peart from Rush absolutely nail the drum solo in XXY. Haven't seen any drummer live as good since.

 

By 1950, he changed his mind. I tend to value the later date. Opinions can change! Braddock was out. If Morgan managed Braddock, it might skew things




Dumb Dan Morgan ( 1950 )
Fight manager, trainer
Quoted in: The Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions, John D. McCallum (pp. 46-47)
1-Jim Jeffries
2-John L. Sullivan
3-Jack Johnson
4-Bob Fitzsimmons
5-Jim Corbett
6-Gene Tunney
7-Jack Dempsey
8-Joe Louis

 

Jordan--but haven't you seen Jordan more recently than 25 years ago. There is so much excellent film. I have often seen him since he retired.

A good comparison for me would be Johnny Unitas versus Tom Brady. I certainly saw Unitas a lot in the old days, but just off memory did he have a stronger arm than Brady. I would really have to study film.

For me, those old lists are interesting but mean nothing much. Jeffries should have rated very highly in any list made in the first half of the century. Louis was mid-career for the 1943 list. Tunney and Dempsey drew the color line. I think it should have come down to Johnson or Jeffries.

But Marciano rang up a better record than Jeffries and I can't credit at all that the 1890's heavyweights were better than the 1950's crop.

And after 1960, of course, there is a whole series of great heavyweights. Even on a historical basis, Jeff is a shaky top ten candidate at this time.