James Toney. Under-rated?

Do you think Holyfield still represented the level of being a quality Heavyweight, by the time Toney and he met?

 

I'm not talking about Toney, just an overall statement.

But his efforts at Heavy definitely add nicely to his resume.

 

OK - In your opinion then - and based on your view that beating quality fighters at higher weights adds more to a boxer's rating than success in general - would a win for Toney over RJJ have outshone his win over Holyfield (and other HWs), in terms of Toney's legacy?

 

Of course it would have, RJJ is a great fighter and was rated 1 or 2 P4P when they fought.

I put "quality" in my post for a reason. Simply going up and beating dregs is nothing like beating quality, and quality comes in different degree's.

If Toney beat a Tyson at heavyweight would that outshine a win over RJJ at 168 in your opinion?

Tony beat some good heavyweights and it definitely enhances his status.

 

Clearly yes.

 

I do not think so.Also it is appropriate to put things into perspective.Toney fought guys like Peter and Rahman, who naturally weighed in the 230-240 pound range. That is an unbelievable 70-80 pounds more than 160 pounds!!

 

Those 'degrees' are dependent on where said quality opponent is in their career, are they not? For example, if Toney beat the version of Tyson that Danny Williams KO'd in 4 then no it would not outshine a victory over RJJ. If a pre-Douglas version of Tyson were around then a Toney victory over him would have been an historical upset and, in that case, yes it most surely would.

So, I think the quality of the Heavyweights that Toney actually beat is debatable and that the kudos he receives (and deserves) really centers on Toney having once been a Middleweight, able to be in there, competing with Heavyweights.

 

It's an interesting question how Toney would rank during the last 30 years. If one only looks at what has been done since 1986.

PBF and Pac are above, without question. Whitaker and JCC as well. I'd also say that Jones dominance in his prime and his dominant victory over Toney himself puts him above.

After that it gets dicier. JMM, Barrera, Holy, Tyson, Lewis, Morales, ODLH, Hopkins, Mosley, Trinidad, Lopez etc. And there are probably more that could be in the mix.

Very much depends on criteria, of course.

 

If that's the case then heavyweights are greater than everyone.

Fighters who win some and lose some in many divisions aren't any greater than those who stay in a division and dominate, imo.
It's logic.

In the case of Toney, no one can seriously claim that the best 'roid-pumped HW version was even theoretically capable of making his old 'natural' weight, since he was so unnaturally-enhanced.

 

A 2003 Tyson, no.

Toney lost to RJJ anyway.

 

That's the crux of it.

 

Had Toney won the belt at heavyweight, that would have greatly enhanced his legacy.Unfortunatley, injuries, not enough discipline and bad luck prevented him from becoming heavyweight champion.His run should not be overrated given the strength of the heavyweight scene but however put into perspective that this was a former middleweight in his late 30s

Still I would think that he had a nice run at heavyweight in the twilight of his career.

Wins: Holyfield, Ruiz (changed to NC), Oquendo (debated by some) Guinn.

Draw: Rahman I.Rahman II ( a NC but in reality Rahman quit)

Losses: Peter twice (although Peter I was very controversial and a decent performance).

 

Of course.

I don't think Spinks beat a particularily good version of Holmes in the first fight and I think he lost the rematch. A number of HW contenders around that time could probably have beaten the Holmes of the first meet. Green versions Williams and 'Spoon went close with a probably better version.

But that Spinks managed it as a former LHW makes it impressive.

I also think that Holy's achievements at HW elevate his p4p ratings due to the fact that CW was his best weight. They are even more impressive from that point of view.

 

Peter I is almost as bad a robbery as the Tiberi fight imo.

 

Michael Spinks is infinitely greater than Toney. I suppose that goes without saying really.
His somewhat weak credentials at heavyweight are better than Toney's heavyweight run.

The more that people keep reminding me who Toney beat at heavyweight, the less impressed I become.
I think it was his build and his style that impresses me more. He's like this squat buddha-shaped character standing flat-footed and mixing it with a bull like Sam Peter.