James Toney. Under-rated?

Yes, perhaps, but that would be because it can be seen to underline his dominance at cruiserweight too. If he'd won some and lost some at cruiser, we might just figure he was more suited to heavyweight.

If anything extra at HW enhances Holyfield's "p4p rating" I'd argue it's the fact that he was absolutely outweighed in some of his big heavyweight wins.

 

That was a cross road fight as it was a WBC eliminator. Had Toney won, he would have fought Maskaev for the WBC title and probably won.

Absolutely amazing, toney was already number 1 ranked and did not need to fight Peter.

 

Peter v Toney made sense from a financial point of view.

I was impressed with Peter's improvement in the rematch. It looked like he was actually learning to box at that point.

Peter's another fighter you wish had been in shape more often.
To be fair to Wladimir Klitschko, Peter was in good shape for both those fights.

 

Weight is not always equal to size. The fact that Toney was fat and in poor shape for several of his HW fights don't elevate them as p4p performances since it's on him to be in shape, but neither does it make it any less of p4p achievements.

Toney might have weighed as much Rahman when they fought, but Rahman was a damn sight bigger. To claim anything else is almost as ridiculous as saying that he was a face first brawler at 160.

These guys aren't of equal size:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0isZGGZnS_Y

Neither are these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOLPzqUX1xM

 

If it's not about weight, it shouldn't be called "pound for pound". But the p4p concept is vague and that's the least of its problems.

I used to hold a similar outlook to the one you have but it's not tenable really.
We have to start rating fighters higher because they have higher body fat in the weight class they choose to fight in, and/or because i percieve them to carry too much weight on a smaller frame ?

James Toney had plenty of muscle mass at 217 pounds against Holyfield. It's hard to tell how much. But muscle mass doesn't count because he had small frame ? I don't know.

I wonder how great Tami Mauriello is "pound-for-pound". Started out as 147 pounder, was a fat 200 pound heavyweight a few years later, and rated #1 contender at one point.

 

Toney had big disadvantages in reach, height, strength and power against these men. That he gave himself a further disadvantage in stamina and mobility by coming in fat as a pig against Peter and Rahman doesn't make the other disadvantages smaller.

That he was in poorer shape against Peter and Rahman than he was against Holyfield (and even against Holyfield he could probably have shaved off 15-20 lbs of pure fat) doesn't make him bigger.

If Duran hade foregone more or less all training and challenged Spinks at 175 (which more or less seems to have been his walking around weight those days) it wouldn't have made him the same size as Spinks. He would just have been a much smaller and much fatter man.

What is it with you and Toney? You just lose every semblance of reason when discussing him. First calling him a face-first brawler at 160 and now this? It's just silly. Give over.

 

Toney at heavyweight looked like the Michelin Man.

His defense and ring savy is what allowed him to survive against some very big heavyweights.

The guys he fought in the early to mid 2000's were relatively weak compared to the late '90s crop

He was smart to move up when he did

That said there are no elite, prime heavyweights on his resume (wins) except maybe Ruiz, and that was changed to a NC.

I think Jones's one fight at HW was more impressive.

He won a portion of the title and got out.

And he beat Ruiz before Toney fought him.

 

To me, Toney's averall body of work at heavy is worth more than the one victory for Jones.Surely Jones would never have fought Rahman or Peter.

Jones was smart he knew he would have gotten knocked out sooner than later so he left after the Ruiz fight.

 

It can not be disputed that Toney fought much larger men than him and was able to survive because of his ring smarts.

 

It wasn't just his ring smarts that allowed him to look competitive. His ability to soak up punishment was another factor (and he did take some heavy punches).

However, I have no doubt that his use of steroids played a significant part in sustaining him physically, while his 'smarts' (being nowhere near as apparent in the heavier divisions, as they had been in his days at 160, 168 and 175) were pitted against opponents with less than outstanding skillsets.

It made for some competitive looking bouts but nothing spectacular at Heavyweight.

 

Toney's career at cruiser and higher is better than Duran's career at 154 and higher.

 

That's up for debate but perhaps an unnecessary one since Duran's legacy was sealed at lightweight and welterweight. Outings at 154 and above serve only as a bonus to Duran's rating.

Not so with Toney, who's rating seems to very much depend on his having picked up a strap at Cruiser and having had varying results at Heavyweight.


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Not great fighters, but Peter was good enough to have Wlad cling on for dear life. Holy was way past it, but would 5 years later perform very credible against Valuev, and Rahman had knocked ATG HW Lewis senseless.

You can nitpick when it comes to everyone, but these guys were no bums.

And, yes, he showed great smarts in these fights. What'a with your 'smarts'? If you can't see that he showed real smarts you really don't know your boxing.

 

Funny. You've just 'nitpicked' in order to give credence to these opponents, whereas I broadly referred to them as being not particularly skilled (including the once great Holyfield, who was a shot fighter).

I agreed that he had showed "smarts". So, you're question is simply a misplaced jibe. And, just because someone doesn't agree with you and is able to explain why, doesn't mean you can presume to judge them.

Why not address the point made about Toney's use of PEDs, instead. It has been starkly overlooked by yourself and others, who are obviously huge fans of Toney. I wonder why?



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Toney used PEDs. Probably during his whole HW career. Quite possibly as a CW. But he was hardly alone (Evan Fields). Satisfied?

And 'smarts' is not the same as smarts.

And no one has said they were particularly skilled, save Holy who everyone agrees was way past his best. So I'm not sure who you're arguing with.

They were pretty regular contenders (and Holy a past it ATG) and regular contenders rarely are very skilled. Hamsho, Roldan etc weren't very skilled. But they'd still be very hard to beat for much smaller men.