Jeffries v Rocky's Challengers?

"Fear of losing his sight does not indicate a cut prone skin"

I didn't say it did, but if your injuries are so severe you are worrying about losing your sight, I think it weighs strongly in the balance.

Here is what was said about Dempsey and his eye injuries at the time.

1926 Tunney fight

AP round by round report

4th round--"Dempsey was bleeding from a cut on the left eye."

10th round--"Dempsey's left eye was closed."

Lewiston Evening Journal, April 11, 1928

AP report from New York--"DEMPSEY WON'T FIGHT FOR FIFTY MILLION"

Dempsey announces his retirement and says no amount of money will lure him back. He gives his reason as maintaining his health.

and then specifically

"The injury to his left eye which he said he suffered when he was butted by Tunney in the 10th round of their fight in Chicago last September, helped influence his retirement, Dempsey indicated. At the same time he said the effects of this injury, though not entirely removed, would not impair his sight."

*This paragraph implies he still had some problems with his sight eight months after the fight, but the long-term outlook was good.

 

On Marciano & Simmons,

My point was only that the photos I have seen don't show that the cut was not under control. Are there other photos?

Your quote from Sharkey Buonnano

Everett Skehan quotes these lines as from Mike Piccento saying that Buonnano told him this. Okay.

But the Life Magazine coverage of the fight on 2-12-1951, from which the photos come, is considerably less melodramatic. It mentions "Charley worked feverishly to stop the flow of blood from his left eye." It implies he managed it by the fifth round. Goldman is quoted, "I was never worried."

In fairness, Goldman perhaps has a motive to minimize the danger of the situation.

Without film, and better coverage of this fight, I at least would be cautious about the extent of the damage.

What we know--Marciano had his next fight 7 weeks later, not an excessive layoff for him.

Eight months after the second Tunney fight, Dempsey apparently still had problems with his injury and his sight.

Eight months after the Simmons fight, Marciano had won five bouts, had KO'd Rex Layne, and was training to fight Joe Louis.

 

Possibly he looked at Braddock's career record and changed his mind. But he did change his mind. I've supplied you a lot of data and it frustrating to watch you play devil's advocate at times on what you admit are unknown facts.

Up to the 60's Jeffries rated above Marciano. You ask who saw what, I can only tell you that many boxing films that have vanished, 1st hand testimonials, and such were out there for historians or fight fans to access. Today they are gone.

Is it better than the internet today? That's a different topic! - Mendoza

Ed,

I don't think the men who pretty much all said Jeffries > Marciano up to the 1960's were throwing darts at a board!

They likely knew more about both than we do. That's my opinion on it. I also think after those men passed in the late 60's to early 70's, Jeffries legacy was in many cases forgotten. In a modern sense, there is more film and more clear film on Rocky. Therefore rated higher by most.

As for Johnson over Jeffries, there is close to a 50/50 split among historians up to 1970, but pretty much all of the heavyweights of the time from Sullivan to Dempsey felt Jeffries was better and this includes fighters like Langford and Jeannette.

No double standard here, just a difference of opinions!

My stance on Johnson is he lost and drew to often, and at times was exposed fighting lesser talents in draws, or even victory.

Who did he defend his title against? No one in the top five outside perhaps Willard who knocked him out/

Why did he lose to the likes of Choynski, Klondike, Griffin, Hart, etc..?

Why was he out boxes by O'Brien according to primary sources, floored by Ketchel, and booed for limited action in quite a few fights?

Head to head, a low punch output without a lot of power and a 74" reach with a chin that was suspect when hit isn't going to do very well.

 

Just on Jeff wearing his opponents down because of his size and weight,

Jeff would have had thirty or so pounds on Dempsey and thirty-five or so pounds on Marciano.

It is certainly at least possible that if they didn't get him out early and it went into the later rounds that Jeff's size, weight, and also strength might have worn them down.

Neither went a lot of rounds with a man as big as Jeffries.

 

Jeffries was very green ( 7 listed fights? ) when he meets Choysnki. Choynski was in his absolute prime. Had they both been in their prime, Choynski likely gets stopped.

There was nothing controversial about Dempsey KO loss to Flynn. He got caught and his own brother threw in the towel. End of.

Most of Sharkey's stoppages came when he was shot. They should not count, unless you like a shot fighter on the decline, like Say Ezzard Charles who was floored 30 times and KO'd even more, a good amount of that happened when he was past it.

Jeffries was a little green for the first meeting with Sharkey and injury in round two when he floored Sharkey, all but taking away his left hook. If not for the injury to Jeffries' shoulder, he likely finishes the no retreat no surrender Sharkey in the high states 25 round re-match. In a modern setting, the fight would have been stopped as Sharkey was out on his feet and staggering, suffered a tremulous beating which had him in the hospital with various ailments.

While Marciano' was never stopped, did he ever face a puncher as good as say Sharkey, or if you believe he was the " hardest hitter of his time " CHoynski? Not likely.

I hope a person who is learning and reading here doesn't take your posts at face value. You're wrong at times and often omit facts to build your points.

 

There are some weaknesses in your argument.

Corbett and Choynski--hard to compare them with Marciano and Dempsey. Off the ringside descriptions, both were jab and move guys against Jeffries. It is hard to see either Dempsey or Marciano doing anything like that, so a fight between either and Jeffries is likely to be a slugging match. Also, Gibbons at 175 went the full distance with Dempsey and the not very big Ted Lowry lasted against Marciano.

Tom Sharkey--I think Sharkey lasting 45 rounds against Jeff makes the best case against Jeff's punching power.

And I agree with you that Jeff just doesn't seem to be in the same class as Dempsey or Marciano as a puncher. Strength, chin, toughness, and stamina are different issues, and Jeff holds up, or more than holds up, in those. Defense is another potential weak spot. Off the ringside reports, Jeff seems to have been pretty easy to hit, and certainly suffered a lot of facial damage in his fights.

*On Jeffries--there is a newspaper report from 1896 that he had several "gray" fights which never made it onto his record, one of which was against Frank Childs. Who knows? No reason to debate that. But if he did, it ironically tends to undercut his stature, as it makes him less green when he fought his draws with Ruhlin and Choynski.

"Corbett was stopped 3 times in 20 fights."

Two of those three stoppages were by Jeff. Not a strong point at all.

 

"No he wouldn't have had huge weight pulls on the 190 lbs. Dempsey and Tunney or the 192 lbs Schmeling."

Well, 220 or so is a lot bigger than 190 or 192. He would have a weight pull of about 30 lbs, give or take a couple of pounds. That impresses me as pretty large. Not like the weight pulls he had against Choynski or Fitz, but quite a few pounds.

Tunney and Schmeling never fought or defeated an opponent remotely close to 220 lbs, and both lost to men no bigger than Fitz or Choynski. Dismissing the size deferential seems a bit arbitrary under those circumstances.

Dempsey is another case, as he did fight the big guys. He went six rounds with the ordinary Morris, his longest fight against any of the big ones. How he would stand up to pulling and tugging with Jeff for 15 or 20 or 25 rounds, if Dempsey didn't get him out early, is certainly open to question. Gibbons was actually lighter than some of the guys Jeff went long rounds against.

As for Marciano, not mentioned in your post, but in this thread, he stopped Shkor in six rounds and Louis in eight, and three lesser guys in one. Again who knows how it goes if he has to go into the late rounds with a 220 lb. Jeffries with the two tugging and pulling at each other and exchanging body blows.

*now as an aside, in historical terms I rate them Marciano, Jeffries, Dempsey.

In fantasy matchups, I would go Marciano, Dempsey, Jeffries.

But let's face it, the fantasy fights are pure guesswork.

*If interested, I think Tunney outpoints Jeff over 15. With Schmeling, I have to go with Jeff, off what happened to Schmeling against Baer, who actually was quite a bit lighter than Jeff at 203.