Marciano-I Just Don't Understand It

But Tyson had the speed and elusiveness to face these giants. Don't get me wrong if Rocky hit them then they would go over, it's the hitting them part that would be the hard bit.....

 

But where would you put Tyson now? 5'10" who hydrates to 216lb on fight night?

Muhammad Ali at his best 210 in the ring?

Superheavyweight is a new division.

Is it just Marciano who dosnt qualify as a "modern heavyweight"?

 

Size alone isn't a true bearing on performance though, for example I believe a similar sized Jack Dempsey would stand a better chance at beating the above due to his style. I also believe that Marciano would knock Dempsey out, it's all about styles...

 

They all beat him down rather easily.

 

Neither of those clips convince me and I'll tell you why.

In the first instance Rocky is gaining power from a tremendous arm swing that throws his entire body into the shot, similar to the way a pitcher throws in baseball. It's a technique capable of producing huge power but it's not explosive since it generates that power primarily through the swinging action; without the wind up it wouldn't be half the punch.

In the second instance Rocky is again trying to generate power through wide arm swings, only the close confines limit his power. Even so, he's able to create sufficient space to reel off a couple of shots with sufficient momentum to cause damage. But you'll notice it requires him to constantly dip and even pull his arms back in a couple of instances, particularly near the end of the clip where he almost hammerfists the back of Moore's head.

Like I said though, Rocky wasn't completely without any explosive qualities, simply that they weren't his primary offensive attribute. And compared to fighters who came after him his deficiencies in this category become apparent. Look, for instance at a guy like Sanders who was able to generate massive rapid firepower in a very confined space without any windup at all; the difference should be very apparent.

https://streamable.com/b5o2
https://streamable.com/nuob

 

The Sanders example is spurt fighting. And Sanders technique does have whip and snap that generates enough effective sting but these are from the elbow arm punches. I cannot entertain explosion with punches from the elbow rather than the shoulder.

 

But what weight class would Holmes, Tyson and Ali feature in today if they wanted to scale at their respective title winning weights? It's not heavyweight.

I keep hearing how Louis, Dempsey and Marciano would be in a lower class now, not allowed to fight modern heavyweights.. But let's play the rehydration dance here on other champions.

 

That one is harder for me to picture. Even under sized comma I like his chances against the furys and klitschko's of the world. However, I have heard even Tyson acknowledging that heavyweights are so much bigger today.

 

On the other hand, with modern training and "supplements " perhaps these Fighters with larger frames would come in 30 pounds heavier? This conversation points out the need for a super heavyweight division.

 

What are you on about, heavyweights don't have to cut to make weight they fight at the weight they perform at their best. Facts are Marciano wouldn't even be a heavyweight of today.

 

After getting a better idea of your definition of explosiveness, you make a great point. And I really appreciate your explanation.

I think that swing in Rockys arm is an additional attribute than the explosives power that allows it. Notice how he bends his back leg to initiate the power. It's very similar form to Tyson when he KO Johnson, and Tua when he leads with the OH right. I think Rocky just takes it a step further with the high trajectory.

For example, its as if they are all generating similar explosiveness for their punches, but Rocky has more control over it. Perhaps because of his small size, he can contain and control his power more.

But yeah, I think Rocky is not just swinging that arm. He's also generates the power for is in a very short burst.

 

Very astute. Yes, Rocky could generate a lot of power in short bursts. His Suzy-Q if landed flush once or twice could KO/TKO, or lead to it vs. two, or perhaps three men on the list.

 

Fact is its not just Marciano!

if Tyson fought today at "the weight he best performed at" and was say 216 on the night...What weight class would he have to be in to be that on the night? Sorry but it is NOT heavyweight anymore.

The guys who are 216 "on the night" are cruisers today. So what you are saying is by today's standard, to fight at the weight that Mike Tyson performed best at today, is the weight class that all the other guys who are 216-220 on the night. And It ain't heavyweight.

Same for Holmes, Ali, Louis, Holyfeild...

 

The only thing that changed since Tyson's heyday was that the Cruiserweight limit was raised from 190lb to 200lb.

The first question is, could Tyson make Cruiserweight? the bigger question is even if he could, why the hell would he want to?

 

I think there are some misperceptions about how cutting weight works here. A ripped, 5'10 athlete who is in his top fighting shape can't just decide to dehydrate and starve himself into losing another 15+ pounds without there being adverse consequences. Tyson was a naturally very big man who ballooned up in weight when he wasn't active.