Marvin Hagler NOT Top 10 All Time @160lbs

I'd probably put him in the top 10 middleweights, but it's no certainty, and I seem to rate him higher "p4p" among his "fab 4" peers than most people here.

 

what is the argument for fitz>hagler at 160?

it isn't film, because there is no bob film at 160
it isn't resume because bob did most of his best work >160
it isn't biggest win because dempsey was ill, small for the weight and not a moq fighter anyway.

what else is there?

 

Fitzsimmons weighed sub-160 for some of his wins over 'heavyweights'. He was actually a middleweight.
He was 158 pounds when he destroyed the 195-pound Gus Ruhlin, a top HW contender.

 

a top ten that is based on beating men who aren't mw's is limited to pre 1920ish fighters. hagler sure doesn't make that top 10, but neither do greb, robinson, charles, burley, monzon, hopkins ect, i would say a mw top ten that excludes all those guys and stops in 1920 isn't worth much in 2106.

 

The list doesn't have to be based on beating men over 160 (while weighing sub-160), but those feats should count for something if it's a case of beating ranked fighters.
I don't believe if would all be pre-1920.
There aren't many Fitzsimmons around in any era. There's only one.

 

Robinson never fought anyone close to Hagler at 160. In fact he may be over rated at 160 based on who he actually fought and defeated. That being said he was Ray Robinson and the early 1951 version would be an exceptionally thought fight for anyone based on his speed, power, chin and stamina. Hagler / Robinson would be a monster match up ..

Sam Langford in my opinion beats anyone at 160. No one hit harder, fought better opposition, was stronger or better .. he could have fought his whole career at 160 but didn't because no one would fight him ..

"Who’ll Fight Sam Langford!
(A Pugilistic Nursery Rhyme)

I.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” said Stanley K.,
“Britt has taken me away
And I’m signed to do a play.
Then I’m going to the hay.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”

II.
“Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” said Jack the Twin.
“I am careful of my chin
And I’m pretty near all in,
And suicide’s a sin.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”

III.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” is Papke’s wail,
“I’m a lily white and pale
And my life is not for sale;
Why I’d sooner got to jail.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”

IV.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford
“Not I,” said Kid McCoy;
“I’m a pretty game old boy,
But this unrefined employ
I will leave for hoi polloi.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”

V.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” said poor old Fitz.
“Though I’d fight for just six bits,
Still I haven’t lost my wits;
I’ll preserve my speckled mitts.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.

VI.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” said Hugo Kelly.
“He would pound me to a jelly
And I’d lose some vermicalli.
Not for me. What ta helli?
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”

VII.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” said Joe da Grim.
“I no like to fight with him
Cause he shutta up my glim
And da chances are too slim
I’ll notta fight Sam Langford.”

VIII.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” Al Kaufman said.
“You are crazy in the head.
Chase yourself and go to bed.
I ain’t anxious to be dead.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”

IX.
“Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not us.” The low brows cried.”
And they turned around to hide.
“Nix: the color line is wide,
And we’re going to stay inside.
We’ll not fight Sam Langford.”

 

I rate Robinson highly at 160 but not higher than guys like Hagler and Monzon who did great things there and stayed for their entire career.

Langford I consider a heavyweight. Not so much of a middleweight. I think he beats a great deal of fighters in history and is in the top 10 p4p but I don't consider him to beat Hagler. Nobody knocks Hagler out. Hagler had the skills to beat Langford as well.

 

A split decision, not to say one of the most controversial decisions in the 80's, is now a "walk in the park"?

 

He dominated a division, had some tough fights past best Duran & Leonard but some good wins and a long reign absolutely puts him in top 10, I have him close to the top around 5-7ish

 

Yes, Hagler is very likely a top-10 middleweight. Personally, I think his opponents from his championship reign have slowly become overrated, but regardless, he still conquered some quality foes, consistently. His pre-title run was solid and his skill-set is superb, too; and in a head-to-head sense it seems he would beat most, maybe all.

 

Indeed.

Fitzsimmons is often ranked in the Top-10 ATG Middleweights, when most of his notable work is at a heavier weight. He won and held the Middleweight title for several years, albeit doing little with it in that time and, because he is an All Time Great Fighter, it's perhaps difficult to rate him at Middleweight.

I think Fitzsimmons gets a lot of kudos for his feats against much bigger men. However, with such a thin record in the then relatively undefined Middleweight Class, how far this distinction adds to his Middleweight credentials is questionable.

So, perhaps a better argument could be made for Ruby being outside of the Top-10 ATG Middleweights than...say...one for Hagler being outside of that list.

 

You haven't seen around 30 Cerdan fights there arent that many filmed fights of his in existence. I saw Gary Duff's fights several times.His Father Mickey Duff had f*ck all to do with it,Gary had the UK franchise from Bill Cayton who with his partner Jim Jacobs amassed a huge collection.You sure are one condescending twerp talking to posters here as though they know jack sh*t and you know it all ,what a jumped up trolling little twat,you are!

 

I actually read this. I like reading s-hit while taking a s-hit.

 

Robinson won the title 5 times but do so he had to lose it each time, he was beatable at160lbs. Monzon never lost his title.
How many great middles did Langford beat? A NWS win over Ketchel which was a bagged fight name another win over a top class middleweight. Where are Cerdan's great wins ? A washed up Zale? Fitzsimmons time as middleweight champion coincided with perhaps the shallowest talent pool the division has seen, he beat a sick champion who was past prime what else did he do there? BtW the weight limit was some 6 lbs lower then. You claim everyone of the historians has Robinson at n1 p4p that isn't true ,quite a few have Greb in that position.You mentioned Mickey Duff in another inaccuracy about the supposed 30 odd fims of Cerdan you claim to have seen[,you haven't,] well Duff, a shrewd judge of fighters picked both Monzon and Hagler to beat Robinson.Glad I hadn't put you back on ignore,its always nice to expose a fraud.