Expert opinions on Liston vs Tyson

Williams was still the only guy to get the job done any way you cut it. Terrell was 27 fights and 5 years into his career. He didn't lose another fight until Ali 5 years later in fact.

Williams was also a highly avoided fighter.

Again, would you say Mildenberger exposed Daniels chin a bit?

Tyson's definitely got the highlight reel for ko's however many intangibles come into such things as seen in the Shavers thread.

 

you are correct but like you say yourself AFTER Williams beat Terrell, Ernie went on that five year unbeaten streak.. but AT THE TIME when WIlliams first met Ernie, of the five years Terrell had been fighting, Ernie had only went unbeaten in just TWO of those first Five years. And it is this far less consistent, un-rated version that Williams beat. It was not the five year unbeaten streak version of Terrell.

Tysons victims knocked out better men than Ernie Terrell. Tucker knocked out Douglas. Bonecrusher knocked out Witherspoon. Spinks knocked out C00ney. Ruddock knocked out Bonecrusher.

And let's not forget the Terrell win came after the knockout defeats William suffered against Liston anyway. What was Williams signature win BEFORE losing to Sonny?

I'm happy to answer this. Karl scored a good knockout win over Daniels and so did Oscar Bonavena. Did it expose Daniels? I dont think there was ever any expectations that Daniels was ever extra special. Just a live kind of journeyman.

it's not just highlight reel, it's calibre of the guys in that reel.

 

If you dig deeper you will see Terrell won a split decision in their second meeting 12 months later. The AP scored it for Williams as did many. Lets' not pretend Williams couldn't jive with Terrell.

Cooney? That version? Williams might have killed him. Williams would have an excellent chance against the likes of Bonecrusher and co.

What was Douglas signature win before topping Tyson?

I was just looking to see if you knew the stoppage was via a body shot, which you didn't evidently.

It's impressive. It also doesn't guarantee Tyson beats Liston.

 

Whitehurst wobbled Sonny? I thought he was momentarily off balance. Ernie Terrell said Williams had great power.

 

Williams had Daniels going several times in their first fight yet he survived Ali stopped Daniels,would anyone claim Ali hit harder than Williams?

"Third ranked Cleveland Williams scored a bloody unanimous decision Saturday night over 6th ranked heavyweight Billy Daniels in their nationally televised 10 round bout. Daniels rocked Williams in the 1st round with a whistling right to the chin. But after that round the fight belonged to Williams, who stalked Daniels like a big cat throwing effective punches. Williams opened up a cut over Daniels' right eye in the 3rd round, another one over the left eye in the 8th round and bloodied Daniels' nose in the 9th. Daniels was in trouble several times, and he slipped twice but he was never knocked down. In the explosive 9th round, Williams staggered Daniels three different times with powerful jaw-crushing left hooks. But each time the game and crafty Daniels managed to clinch until the cobwebs cleared from his head." -United Press International"

 

Liston's jab an "overated myth?" Yet many boxing experts consider it one of the greatest of all time.For what fights was Liston"under 200lbs"? Who are the light heavies Liston fought? I can only find Marty Marshall. The underlined statement does not make logical sense.

 

I knew it was a split decision and I have seen footage of it. Seemed like a close run thing...But let's not pretend Terrell was a great fighter. All his fights were quite close as was his spoiling, tangle prone nature.

where is the evidence that Williams kills Cooney or Ruddock or Bruno or Bonecrusher or Douglas? Where on film of Williams winning fights can we draw upon this conclusion? Losing a fight by knockout is one thing. Beating somebody on film that was almost or actually quite good is another.

When all said and done Williams is proberbly only Alex Stewart Level. At best. No shame at all in that. Dangerous up to a level, exciting losing versus good fighters but in the scheme of things, ultimately, no great shakes. Certainly nothing to measure against Tyson.

Actually Douglas has a good resume. He beat Page when Page was decent, he beat Cobb when Cobb was decent, he beat MCCall when he was unbeaten, he beat Berbick in an eliminator.. Douglas was quietly racking up competative upset wins as the opponent. Knocking out Mark Williams (if you watch the fight) was a credible knockout win against a guy who took Witherspoon to a split verdict that went under the radar. There is nothing as good you can say about Cleveland Williams actual WINS. Daniels and Miteff? That's as good as it got for the Big Cat. Both fights after Liston too.

A knockout is a knockout. I dont think Oscar Delahoya was any less knocked out by Bernard Hopkins because it was from a body shot. Williams knocked guys out with body punches too. Billy the Barber just was not one of them.

I think Tyson beating Alex Stewart calibre contenders --which Cleveland at best was, with less difficulty than Liston (as well as beating a host of bigger better guys than Clevland like Golota, Ruddock, Bruno, Biggs, Truth Williams ) should be instrumental in arriving to an opinion.

Tysons victims knocked out better men than the unrated Ernie Terrell who only went unbeaten on two of the first five years when he met Williams. Tucker knocked out Douglas. Bonecrusher knocked out Witherspoon. Spinks knocked out C00ney. Ruddock knocked out Bonecrusher. Williams has nothing like that.

 

Cleveland Williams and Sonny Liston were both way past it by the time Ali caught up with them .

Come on now , You are well aware of this . I don't need to remind you of that .

Its like me trying to counter your argument and say That " Well , Berbick had wobble Ali multiple times in their fight and staggered him with his left hook .

But im not going to do that because I know very well Ali was past his prime when that fight took place .
so therefore I don't credit Berbick with any success he had at all against that version of Ali .

Whitehurt hurt Liston yet Liston came roaring back , dominated and knocked him threw the ropes .

That's the thing about Liston , In his prime he did not fold or mentally break down when someone hurts him or when he sees things are not going his way Like Tyson did .

Liston always answered back .

 

Sonny was one fight from a career best win against Clay the first time..Sonny was 7-1 favourite over Clay so nobody thought he was way past his best going into hat fight.

Nobody could argue that Sonny Against Clay was in the same place with his career that Muhammad Ali was against BERBICK.

And if Sonny were, (and he wasn't) the truth is SOnny was still "stung" in that fight, just as he was knocked down by light heavy Marty Marshall and wobbled by Bert Whitehurst. Folley was said to have drove him across the ring too.

It is okay to address this.

Sonny was still a special talent. His career was stop start but after a run of regular fights and good opponents he was always pretty good even late in his career. Against scrap Iron Johnson and Henry Clark Sonny looked particularly good. His best run was 1960 until clay beat him.

 

If you knew anything at all about Liston you'd know he was on the way down by the time he got his title shot.

 

Lets not pretend in our blind rush to discredit anything Liston that Terrell isn't a noteworthy win either.

Where is the evidence Douglas knocks out Tyson? He wasn't 40 odd to 1 for nothing. Where is the evidence Spinks beats Holmes, he hadn't even fought at heavyweight. I could name 10000 more. Williams would match up fine with that lot. Cooney never beat a prime top 10 fighter.

LOL, Alex Stewart level.

Is signature win resume? We are talking signature win. Quite telling that you couldn't single one out.

Also extremely telling that you run Page down to the lowest when defending Holmes ducking him yet now suddenly (when the agenda suits) he's worthy of mention. Never mind he'd lost 3 of his last 4 fights going into the Douglas bout. Cobb was on the way down and was at the start of a 4 fight losing streak. He had also prepared for the dramatically different Berbick and had 3 days notice of the change of opponent.

Noway on mother earth you knew it was a body shot

I think your judgement regarding the quality of fighters is well and truly up for scrutiny. It is only your opinion and it's pretty obvious that opinion is extremely anti anything Liston. Those 4 are all average fighters in the big scheme of things.

Again, only in your opinion.

 

If I knew anything about Liston? What is that supposed to mean?

I know as much as anyone else about Liston. Unless you know the exact date he was born and the exact circumstances of his death then I would say nobody can know anymore than anybody else. I have two books on him and like everybody else on here I have studied all of the film on him. What more is there to know?

What fight before Patterson shows Liston was heading for a decline? Was it the Whestphal fight? What did Sonny do wrong in that fight?

I have stated many times that it was the lack of competative rounds that hurt Sonny for the Clay fight...Not a decline. The Patterson fights were one rounders one year appart. But that is with hindsight! Nobody was warning Sonny of this before the Clay fight because Henry Cooper nearly knocked Clay out with a left hook in the challengers previous fight so all the smart money was on Liston beating Clay in a few rounds. Hence 7-1. Any common knowledge that Sonny was on a decline was not represented one bit in the betting.

Because of that loss we can say Sonny looks better on film in 1960 but we need the loss to decide this dont we??

 

on paper there is nothing between Alex Stewart and The big cat.

Take your pick McCall or Mark Williams. Both signature level wins right ahead of upsetting Tyson..the signature win of them all.

no way it mattered. Bonavena knocked out Billy the Barber and so did Mildenburger. In twenty rounds Williams never did. Also Frankie Daniels went the distance with Williams. There is quite a list of people he did not knock out who others did. About all anyone can say is Williams did beat Miteff and Daniels. He also beat an inconsistent Terrell before he was famous. That's it for wins.

Golota, Bruno and Ruddock were average compared to big cat Williams? What are you talking about?

it's only my opinion that Williams did not beat fighters as good as Witherspoon when Bonecrusher knocked him out?, that Williams did not beat a fighter as good as Douglas when Tucker knocked him out? That Williams even beat a fighter as good as Cooney when Spinks knocked him out?

Where or when was it anybody else's opinion that big cat Williams beat, actually won fights, that proved he was good enough to do this?

Please explain this.