Is Carlos Ortiz greater than Julio Cesar Chavez?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by DirtyDan, Oct 8, 2016.


Page 1 of 5
  1. DirtyDan

    DirtyDan Worst Poster of 2015 Full Member

    10,718
    3,826
    Oct 30, 2011
    Does Carlos Ortiz surpass Chavez both in greatness and h2h?

    Carlos Ortiz has a monster resume and is often underrated compared to other greats. With wins over Joe Brown, Flash Elorde, Ismael Laguna, Sugar Ramos, Dulio Loi, even the draw against master boxer Locche.. does he rate above Chavez in the ATG rankings?

    Compare Chavez's wins over Taylor, Rosario, Camacho, Haugen, Mayweather, Lockridge and Ramirez, it pales in comparison. A lot of Chavez's greatness comes from the 87-0 winning streak across 4 weight divisions. But if we take that away, how does Chavez rate above Ortiz?

    h2h is up for debate.
     
    DirtyDan, Oct 8, 2016
    DirtyDan, Oct 8, 2016
    #1
    Clinton likes this.
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,260
    48,596
    Mar 21, 2007
    I'm pretty sure Ortiz deserved the nod against Locche. But i might be mixing him up and it's too late to check.

    I think JCC is above him. I think JCC would beat him. But yeah it's close.
     
    McGrain, Oct 8, 2016
    McGrain, Oct 8, 2016
    #2
  3. DirtyDan

    DirtyDan Worst Poster of 2015 Full Member

    10,718
    3,826
    Oct 30, 2011
    Why though?
     
    DirtyDan, Oct 8, 2016
    DirtyDan, Oct 8, 2016
    #3
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,260
    48,596
    Mar 21, 2007
    Probably because of Ortiz's losses. I mean why should Ortiz be above Loi? Loi bested him, head-to-head, if we're taking those results as they stand. You want Loi above Chavez too?

    You think Kenny Lane would beat Chavez? How about John Busso?
     
    McGrain, Oct 8, 2016
    McGrain, Oct 8, 2016
    #4
    jabber74 likes this.
  5. DirtyDan

    DirtyDan Worst Poster of 2015 Full Member

    10,718
    3,826
    Oct 30, 2011
    I don't think Ortiz would struggle mightily against LaPorte, but I'm strictly speaking on p4p only. h2h, I'm indifferent, I haven't researched enough to give a non biased opinion.

    Also he lost to Doi at LWW, Lightweight was Ortiz's optimal weight class. He reign there is better than anything Chavez has done imo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
    DirtyDan, Oct 8, 2016
    DirtyDan, Oct 8, 2016
    #5
  6. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

    16,416
    15,564
    Jun 9, 2007
    I like how Chavez looks on film better.
    I got Chavez
     
    robert ungurean, Oct 8, 2016
    robert ungurean, Oct 8, 2016
    #6
  7. DirtyDan

    DirtyDan Worst Poster of 2015 Full Member

    10,718
    3,826
    Oct 30, 2011
    Chavez on what, h2h or resume/accomplishments?
     
    DirtyDan, Oct 8, 2016
    DirtyDan, Oct 8, 2016
    #7
  8. DirtyDan

    DirtyDan Worst Poster of 2015 Full Member

    10,718
    3,826
    Oct 30, 2011
    Yeah, he did deserve the nod over Locche. Researching more on that fight, Ortiz gave Locche a pizza face and the people in the audience boo'd the decision, despite being pro Locche. Even more of a reason to rank him over Chavez.
     
    DirtyDan, Oct 8, 2016
    DirtyDan, Oct 8, 2016
    #8
  9. Mortal

    Mortal Member Full Member

    366
    196
    Sep 30, 2016
    There is a case to be made. Carlos Ortiz is one of the most underrated boxers in the sport. Great resume and a complete fighter if there ever was one.
     
    Mortal, Oct 9, 2016
    Mortal, Oct 9, 2016
    #9
    Clinton likes this.
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,810
    29,252
    Jun 2, 2006
    Sacked as Delahoya's trainer because his facial appearance disturbed Oscar,
     
    mcvey, Oct 9, 2016
    mcvey, Oct 9, 2016
    #10
  11. Mortal

    Mortal Member Full Member

    366
    196
    Sep 30, 2016
    Wtf! Is that true??
     
    Mortal, Oct 9, 2016
    Mortal, Oct 9, 2016
    #11
  12. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,177
    Sep 15, 2009
    I rank Chavez number 25. Ortiz number 51.

    Sanchez
    Chavez
    Canto
    Olivares
    Zarate
    Saldivar
    Ortiz

    That's my ranking of Mexicans.
     
    lufcrazy, Oct 9, 2016
    lufcrazy, Oct 9, 2016
    #12
  13. DirtyDan

    DirtyDan Worst Poster of 2015 Full Member

    10,718
    3,826
    Oct 30, 2011
    I rank Fighting Harada at 25 and Pac at 51. Don't ask me why, I just do.

    Manny Pacquaio
    Sung Kil Moon
    Khaosai Galaxy
    Fighting Harada
    Gennady Golovkin

    That's my ranking for Japanese fighters.
     
    DirtyDan, Oct 9, 2016
    DirtyDan, Oct 9, 2016
    #13
  14. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,177
    Sep 15, 2009
    That list isn't all Japanese fighters.
     
    lufcrazy, Oct 9, 2016
    lufcrazy, Oct 9, 2016
    #14
  15. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

    16,416
    15,564
    Jun 9, 2007
    All the above.
    Hes just the better fighter in my book
     
    robert ungurean, Oct 9, 2016
    robert ungurean, Oct 9, 2016
    #15
Page 1 of 5