Is Carlos Ortiz greater than Julio Cesar Chavez?

Just a quick highlight reel of Laguna is enough to show that he is clearly better than Taylor.

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Exactly. Laguna is the better technician and ring general who fought better fighters.

 

I'm not arguing he isn't, but no one has actually given a good reason why he is.

On those two highlight reels what is it that makes Laguna look a class above Taylor?

 

Mostly everything tbh. Jab, movement (feet, upper body and head movement), ring intelligence, counter punching, defence, and probably power as well. Laguna was also as tough as nails, no one ever stopped him. He had an amazing chin. Taylor has the edge in speed but I don't give him much more than that over Laguna.

 

Ortiz is one of those unique fighters, that won a title at a higher weight, then moved down to become a dominant Champion in the weight-class below. Won NYSAC Jr.Welterweight title in 6/59, lost the JWW in 9/1960, then won the Lightweight Title in 1962, with numerous (12) following defenses.

 

What evidence would you produce to back up those claims.

My issue is, if people didn't know the names of the fighters nor their background. If they on had those two video clips to go off, would it be a landslide decision in announcing Laguna the better fighter?

I don't think it's quite that clear cut.

 

Tbh I'm going by what I've seen and know of both fighters rather than just those two highlight video's. Though I do think those highlight clips show Laguna to be the better technician and ring general. Taylor was a fantastic punching machine no doubt about it, he just isn't as good a boxer as Laguna and he wasn't as tough as him either. I don't really think I need to provide evidence. It is what it is.

 

The last two sentences are the biggest problem for me.

If you want to say fighter A is better than fighter B you need to be able to demonstrate it convincingly.

The two highlight reels do not indicate a gulf in class.

A brand new boxing fan could be forgiven for saying the black guy looks better than the Mexican guy.

The argument about Ortiz beating better fighters needs to be based n something other than it is what it is,

 

Why do I have to demonstrate it convincingly? It is my opinion that Laguna ticks more boxes than Taylor making him the better boxer. If your not happy then that's your problem. Go and study his fights and decide for yourself.

The highlight reel for me shows Laguna is the better boxer. Showing superior technical skills and movement. Why don't you prove otherwise?

A bit like yourself when you used to nut hug Floyd Mayweather.

No, I actually said that Laguna 'fought' the better boxers and he clearly did. Ortiz x3 Buchanan x2 Locche, Ramos and Saldivar off the top of my head.

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In terms of a fight between the two It would be a speed fest. Would Taylor's aggressive, speedy combination punching get the better of Laguna's brilliant movement, fast accurate jab and intelligent shot selection/counter punching? Taylor would be the bigger stronger man but Laguna was as tough as they come. I choose Laguna because he's all round the better boxer imo.

 

I'm not unhappy. I just don't feel you've put forth a convincing argument.

I don't feel otherwise, I've just said if you watch the two clips you'd be forgiven for saying there's no gulf in class.

So I'm assuming you're an alt of someone, who did you used to be?

I'd pick Laguna as well, but it wouldn't exactly be upset of the year if Taylor took a points decision.

 

That's fair enough. I respect your opinion.

I'm not an alt. I'm a spam bot.

 

I prefer ranking on footage but the quality of opposition has to be taken into account. For instance Duran beating Leonard is clearly better than Judah beating Rivera despite Judah looking like superman that night.

Sometimes it is a case of. It just is, but I find that hard to justify. We all "know" Laguna is superior to Taylor but when it comes down to actually justifying it, it's not so easy because of how good Taylor looks on film himself.

A spam bot you say. I'm trying to remember the old names. I was high on May weather back in 2007 after he burst my Hatton bubble, but started posting here when he announced his comeback in 09. That's going back some distance.

 

I agree 100%.

Time fly's mate. You turned into one of the more knowledgeable poster so all's good.

 

Can anyone here think of a single fighter at 135 today that could beat Laguna?