New on here, heavyweights are my thing. I grew up watching the 70's and particularly 80's guys. Out of these guys, who could've/ should've been better and how would or could they achieved this ? Trevor Berbick ( a favourite of mine as we shared the same origins) He seemed to have talent and durability. Tyrell Biggs. Superbly stylish , ran into peak Tyson , but no disgrace in defeat there, it was his decline afterwards that was heartbreaking. Tim Witherspoon. Seemed to me to have little or no weakness in the ring when on song. Tony Tucker. Seemed to have all the attributes.Looked comfortable against peak Tyson.(claimed hindered by broken hand) Gave Lewis a fight several years later. These are my 4 , from a long list of suspects who couldve/ shouldve done better in that era. Biggs was matched incredibly hard ( Tyson, Damiani,Mason,Bowe,Lewis who were all prime ( or approaching)/and unbeaten when he fought them.Even on the downgrade Biggs only lost to good fighters, Mike Hunter, Buster Mathis jnr (unbeaten) Larry Donald ( who's only loss had been when fighting for the title) etc. Biggs confessed to a coke habit after the Olympics and first pro fight, but claims to have been clean since. He always looked in great shape. Tucker ,to my mind, was Biggs with more power, he almost looked the perfect heavyweight. Witherspoon was such a good boxer and really tough. Berbick wasnt stylish but did everything fairly well. Yet none of these guys really had a sustained period where they established themselves. I've selected them ahead of some other 80's guys as the following had clearer and singularly conclusive reasons why they didnt fulfil their potential.. ie, Cooney ( Holmes beating and alchoholism) Page ( poor dedication/ diet) Tubbs ( ditto, plus drugs) Williams(Carl) ( fundamental weakness of chin, not helped by carrying right hand permanently low when throwing jab..left hookers delight !) I think my 4 were better 'Could've / Should'ves. Happy to discuss..thanks
The 80s was an era that should have been outstanding based on the available talent, but for various reasons it never quite came together. Witherspoon and Tucker are fighters who would have been a lot more, if they had got better career breaks IMHO. Guys like Page, Dokes, Tubbs, and Thomas had the talent to be special, but they blew it due to factors outside the ring.
Tyson himself could have been much better than he was - but blew it, after a few brief explosive years, and was finished as a potentially truly great HW by about 1991.
Greg Page was always a stand out for me. Big man, superb chin, great speed, great jab and a big right hand that rivalled Coetzee's for power. His first problem was laziness and lack of dedication. He hit the refridgerator as much as the heavybag and was woefully inconsistent. His weight and condition often took the sting out of him in the later rounds. Attitude was another and it manifested itself in two ways here. Firstly he tried to be another Ali imitator, showboating and f'king around rather than getting in and getting the job done. Secondly he had the attitude that everyone was out to get him and that he never got a fair go. Everytime he lost he thought he'd won, and on at least one occasion scaled back in the last round or two thinking he'd done enough when in actuality he hadn't. Lastly he needed better guidance earlier, particularly technique wise. He needed someone to get him off his toes and get his hands up a bit more among other things. Being a big man he really did not need to waste energy unnecessarily. Tim Witherspoon gets too much of a free pass nowadays imo. The excellent effort in losing a close one to a fading Larry Holmes gets him milage beyond his tank capacity. He lost to Thomas when at his peak and in shape. He got far more out of himself than a Page or Dokes. I totally agree he could have had more opportunites later after a falling out with King but that would have simply made him yet another Tyson victim, and rest assured he would have been. He was all set to fight Tyson as part of the Heavyweight unification series but got blown out one fight prior by James Smith. Ideally Witherspoon could have got a shot after Tyson lost, he was sneaking around winning and excepting politics would have i think. He wasn't overly beating anyone but he wasn't in the good books to get the opportunity to. He'd have probably had a chance against Moorer but would not have beat Holyfield. Mike Weaver was heavily affected by the politics of the time when at his best. He barely fought during this period.
Interesting views on Witherspoon.Sometimes its funny how the passing of time can cloud your views on things (sometimes for better and sometimes worse) i think your comments on him maybe right/ fair. With regard to his blow out v Bonecrusher Smith, ive read that he said he lost on purpose to get out of dealing with Don King ? Im not sure of the mechanics of that and whether or not he is being truthful ? I remember that event, it was at MSG on a snowy day just before Christmas 1986, the undercard had Tyrell Biggs beating Renaldo Snipes in an entertaining fight.
It definitely had a stench about it. If he won tho he would have got solid bucks to fight Tyson. My point i guess is that most now seem to think he was the biggest talent of the group and i think that's quite a bit off. He's a damn good fighter, nice defense, jab, good power etc. Well rounded. He got more out of himself than a few others tho. For me his potential fell below Page and Dokes. Cooney was another that could have been a damn good fighter but he was brought along all wrong and never had the mental toughness or make up to ever fulfill his potential. Even Weaver, he was a damn good fighter around the time of Coetzee, if he was connected better and active he would have made a decent mark. He edged Dokes in that rematch.
Witherpoon's record is better than a casual glance suggests, once you crunch the numbers. Witherspoon was ranked in the top ten of the annual ratings every year from 1982-1991, and then again in 1996 and 1997. When you look at it this way, he put together a much more impressive run of world class form, than the other contenders of the 80s.
I don't think the 1980s heavyweights were wasted talents as much as they are made out to be. Truth is, a lot of these names were matched against each other regularly, and someone has to lose. Lots of evenly-matched fighters, someone wins, someone loses. It equates to career ups-and-down. That's life.
I'd say Tim Witherspoon proved himself more talented than Greg Page. Greg Page had years and years of amateur training and experience. Witherspoon was 19 before he even laced on the gloves. If Page was such an amazing talent he'd have beaten guys like that, out of shape, and with his eyes closed, considering his massive advantage in experience.
Besides the obvious example of Mike Tyson, I nominate Gerrie Coetzee....I believe that his problems were mostly mental...he had the tools, size and the big bionic right hand...he could have had more fights on par with his great destruction of Spinks and that great title winning ko of Dokes if he had his head screwed on tighter.
This is what is fascinating about the 80s. You ask six people who the real "what if" of the decade was; you might get six different answers!
Too much talent man, but they wasted it, too many Ali impersonators too, but imo it has to be Dokes, the man was a serious talent, he had some of the fastest hand i've seen. By the way, the amateur great, Teofilo Stevenson, had wins over most of them.
I completely and utterly disagree. Determination, effort and being in shape will overcome the opposite most every time in a world class matchup. Page just lazed in their actual fight and weighed a whopping 239 1/2, 12 1/2 pounds athan he did 12 months earlier in his impressive win over Renaldo Snipes in the title eliminator to fight Larry Holmes. Page mostly laid all over the ropes and barely even punched. Once the Holmes fight fell thru it was as if he just had to turn up to take the title. It was a boring deplorable effort and even then he was far from flogged. You only need to watch the fight to see what a non effort it was from Page. Even then he thought he'd won which falls into my everybodies out to get me comments. Witherspoon turned up in shape and motivated, Page didn't. Page had only 6 more pro fights when they fought. Witherspoon lacing them up at 19 reinforces one of my points. Page was not developing as he should have been in the pro's. He was still loose technically and relying too much on his superb reflexes and speed vs a tighter technique. Sparring guys like Ali would certainly have fast tracked Witherspoon too. Witherspoon was quite dedicated, trained hard and was taught very very well. If only Page did. If only Dokes didn't find drugs. Page and (secondly) Dokes were the big two wasted talents of the time. Witherspoon got plenty out of what he had and just lacked some opportunity after the Smith rematch.
