Been reading through alot of this and for the most part, there's decent discussion. Too bad it veers into the name calling at times. I'm very firmly on the "size matters" side, but I've always found reznick to be a reasonable opponent on that. Anyway, my position is that of course it's not the be all end all, but there are weight classes for a reason. And hw's have been getting consistently bigger for a reason. Generally, throughout hw history the top contenders have gotten both taller and heavier, an increase also seen in other sports where tangible results have increased. In addition most champs, with notable exceptions for Tyson and Rocky, have been bigger than the average contender of their era.So, from a logical perspective, while Louis and Ali will always be my top two hw's for legacy, it's unlikely they could hang with the shws of today h2h.
Just be straight up and there would be no misunderstandings. My claim is that sparring bigger guys isn't that hard. I backed it up with my experience with a guy that has at least 70 lbs on me. I will say however if I didn't know what I do about how to fight a big guy then I would get whooped every sparring session we have.
Genuinely curious, what was the height weight of you both? Would you say you were holding your own or having your way with him? Who had more experience? Who had more success against other fighters?
Im not comparing guys under 225 you are . Im also talking about a world of difference sparring friends at your house and sparring SHW's who know how to box at a gym as well ,ive done both. Just be straight up? lol yea good one.
The size of modern heavyweights has been severely blown out of proportion. The heights of most heavies are lies first of all. Second, they have been getting bigger because of the use of steroids and hgh. Luis Ortiz is probably a 210 lbr without the use of hgh and steroids. Same with Joshua. Furthermore the work rate of heavyweights today is ****. The great heavies of the past were more than durable enough to take a super heavies punch.
Yeah, people are talking as if they actually know how big all these fighters are/were, down to the half inch in height and reach, and down to the pound in weight. Truth is, heavyweights and their teams have far less interest in accurately recording their size than some of the geeks on this forum do. Even their announced weights are unreliable. Heavyweights are allowed to cheat the scales, makes no difference, no one cares. And with my own eyes I've seen some of these men's recorded heights are way off what they are actually. Usually they are shorter in real life. I don't know if that was always the case.
I'm about 140 5'10" he's about 210 6'3". I wouldn't say I was having my way with him because we were working together to get better but if it was a real fight I would have torn into him a lot harder than I was. He's a great body puncher and was before he even came to the gym. I have more experience because I have been at the gym longer but he had already developed that "fight instinct" so to speak. I don't want to make it sound like he's a total noob lol because he's not. There are a lot of different levels of guys at our gym so idk what you mean by more success. It isn't like that anyway, it is sparring and we work with each other pushing to new limits but also not just beating on each other. If we fought for real in a bout I am comfortable that I would win.
I actually posted a thread one time empirically charting the height progression based on ring magazine's top 10 list by decade. Go look at ring and cross reference with box rec yourself if you don't believe me. I started around 1950 and found a progression of about a half inch and 5 pounds per decade, going from under 6 and 185 to over 6'4 and 230 now (give or take, would need to look at my old thread or the old ring rankings again to be perfectly accurate). And if the smaller hw's of the past were better able to take a shw punch than fighters of today, why don't fighters of today lose weight? Also, today has a much larger talent pool of potential fighters than 60 years ago, due to population growth and opening of markets. To analogize, a small division school is unlikely to produce better athletes than a larger one, so they are put in divisions. Feel free to believe the fighters of yesteryear would beat today's, part of me would like that, it's just all the rational evidence suggests otherwise.
I can't find the thread you made. Do you have a link to it? If you started in 1950 then you started when Marciano was champ and he was one of the shortest heavyweight champs. If we start at Jeffries and go to today there isn't a clear increase in height. It is all over the place. Jeffries:6' Burns: 5'7" Johnson: 6'1" Willard: 6'6-7" Dempsey: 6'1" Tunney: 6' Schmeling: 6'1" Baer: 6'2" Braddock: 6'2" Louis: 6'2" Charles: 6' Walcott: 6' Marciano:5'10" Patterson: 6' Liston: 6'1" Ali: 6'3" Frazier: 5'10" Foreman: 6'3-4" Holmes: 6'3" Tyson: 5'10" Holyfield: 6'1" Bowe: 6'5" Lewis: 6'5" V Klitschko: 6'7" W Klitschko: 6'6" Wilder:6'7" Fury: 6'7" Joshua: 6'5" Idk how accurate the last 5 are because the heights aren't accurately reported anymore. Not that many champs were 185 and below. Burns was the only one that routinely came in below 185. Only 4 were under 6 foot and they were spread throughout history so there is no correlation there.
Is there any way to find this thread? My favorite thing about this forum is when somebody does some real in depth analysis or content creation related to popular topics. Would love to check it out!
You could pick a SFW May weather and say there's no way someone so small beats Miguel Cotto. But once he'd bulked up we know that he did beat him. There's a point when the extra weight is just fat and not helpful but there's a lot to be gained from increasing muscle mass and strength. Anyone who bulk effectively to 215 pounds has a chance against any man no matter the weight.
Here are the average heights at the beginning of each decade by ring magazine. 1924- 6'1" 1930- 6'1.25" 1940- 6'1.5 1950- 6'0.5" 1960- 6'1" 1970- 6'1" 1980- 6'3" 1990- 6'2.5" 2000- 6'2.5" 2010- 6'3.5 So starting from the beginning of the ring magazine, the average height has only increased by 2.5 inches. If we looked at the average skill level we would see a far steeper declination.