Dempsey v Liston...

Another excellent post by Anubis...I also tend to favor Frazier for reasons given.. Excellent post

 

So, using a fighter's 8th pro fight as definitive proof in a discussion is legit?

Ok, then, Dempsey's performance against John Lester Johnson proves to me that he wouldn't be able to take Liston's power or bodywork .

And while Liston reversed the Marshall verdict twice, Dempsey never returned with Johnson . Hell, he never fought a black fighter again.

 

Has the Fireman popped up yet.

 

This content is protected

 

We're getting there.

 

Who is Dempsey mauling though? His best win was 4 years out of boxing Jess Willard who wasn't as good as any sparring partner he had . He hired Tate in the same sense to potentially avoid fighting him, though drew the color barrier. What part did you see Demspey comfortable? looked like a little kid trying to beat up big brother. Dempsey was vicious to those who didn't hit him with a solid jab, he could have done that all day the aggressive style ,against Liston it would be another story.The main difference between the two is Liston won convincingly against higher opposition. Im also pretty sure young foreman would batter anyone Dempsey fought, who was Listons sparring partner..

This vid shows he would know what to do...

This content is protected

 

I actually think Dempsey is a better fighter than Liston, but not enough to counter the 20 pounds he'd be giving away in weight.

Liston by ko.

 

Perfect segue setup. Now Liston's advancing age is removed from the equation.

We all saw how Eddie Machen dropped big Nino Valdes with a right to the body, the same right he injured in training for Liston. We can see how in contrast to that bout with Sonny how severely damaged that right hand was for Liston, the difference between a decision win for Sonny and a knockout win for Eddie.

30 seconds left to go in round eight in Seattle, Machen unloads with a bomb of a left hook with Liston's back to the camera, nearly blowing Sonny flat onto the deck. The same hook from Dempsey puts Liston staring up at the lights.

Sonny lucked out with Eddie's arm injury, knew full well about it, and was immensely relieved he never had to rematch Machen again with two good arms going against him. (Later, Liston's own left was badly screwed up in Patterson II and Clay I, but he was able to get away with it in the rematch with Floyd by doing all damage with his right.)

Yes, I'm saying it. In a trilogy between a healthy Sonny Liston and Eddie Machen, Machen wins the series, and possibly sweeps it. And the left injured Liston definitely quits Patterson I if a Machen with fully healed right arm get that title rematch in Miami Beach ahead of Clay.

"Liston is a good figter, but he won't knock down any walls." - Eddie Machen immediately after their match in September 1960. Sonny wanted no rematch with an opponent he feared, a head case who wasn't in the slightest intimidated by Liston after 12 rounds with a ligament torn right hand.

Machen wanted a rematch with Sonny in the worst way, knew for a fact he had Liston's number with two good weapons, but it could never be sold the way a one armed Eddie was left with no option but to fight Sonny as he did. Machen was too tough for his own good, and to him, a contract was a contract, but it should have been cancelled until Eddie was healed enough to drop Liston from contention.

Again, the Dempsey sized sub 200 pound Machen proved that Summerlin 2X, Marshall 2X, Leotis, Joiner 2, Whitehurst I & II, Neil Welch (!) did not have to weigh 200 pound to hang with Sonny until the final bell (or even prior in the case of Leotis). Who the hell wants the likes of Dempsey sticking around for the 12 round distance he pounded down the 206 pound Brennan in for the full count with body shots?

Jack has many, MANY more opening round knockouts, a 12 round countout win on film, and a championship distance win on film. Also, take away the controversial ending, his rallying body shots when past prime where taking an obvious toll on peak Jack Sharkey with over half the scheduled rounds remaining. Assuming no debatable conclusion, the Gob had no chance of withstanding that body beating long enough to complete another eight rounds of that torso hammering. Sharkey's best moments in that match were already behind him, and he'd failed to finish the job.

 

And Maxine Cates?lol

 

Dempsey had 13 more fights so its not surprising he has more early ko's. Brennan weighed 196lbs & 197lbs for his two fights with Dempsey.

 

Interesting suppositions but 97% your opinion , not supported by facts.
Liston was having his 6th and 7th fights against Summerlin.
He was 38,[at least], against Joiner.
Ancient against Martin.
Having his 9th fight against Welch, who had not been stopped at that time.
Whitehurst was out of the ring trying to get back in when the final bell rang to save him from a ko in their 2nd fight.
Liston feared Machen? Who says so, apart from you ?
I agree with the Dempsey v Sharkey scenario, the rest of your post is your hyperactive imagination being given full rein!

 

"Listons age is removed from the equation," except when you include it when talking about the Martin and Joiner fights!lol

 

He hired Tate,or rather Kearns did ,because he was the same size as Willard. Tate had won 6 of his last 13 fights, why would Dempsey need to avoid him? You're pretty sure young Foreman would batter anyone Dempsey fought? How many of Dempsey's 69 opponents have you seen?

 

Liston carried Machen.

 

The link i provided tells why he hired Tate and why Tate was limited as a pro.

I havent seen anyone overly skilled that Foreman couldn't handle that Dempsey fought ..