Ali's Anchor Punch - Question.

The fight was a classic balls up on the part of the officials, Ali acting the goat and Nat Fleischer sticking his nose in.

Ali did look very very sharp and up for the fight. He was charged!

Genuine flash knock down. no count. utter chaos. Sonny waits for a count and he won't get up until Ali is controlled.

I dont think Sonny was fighting with a positive mental attitude. Walcott and Patterson (excluding the Ingo rematch) were the same in their automatic rematch clause fights as ex champions.

 

Well said.
Ali in his most private moments, away from the cameras, around only close friends and family, said it was real.

Honestly, Ali turned the situation into chaos after he started running around after the knockdown.
What is a referee supposed to do at this point? Deduct a point?
Count over Liston while Ali is standing over him?
Disqualify Ali, the guy who just outclassed Liston and put him on his ass?

My intuition tells me Walcott should've delayed the count until Ali was in a corner.
Chok, you said you've done some officiating. What do you think Jersey Joe should've done in that situation?

And for Sonny, why would he get up when Ali is running around him yelling and acting crazy?
When you are in the boxing ring, you never ever take chances. Ali was winding up his fists and everything.

It was a chaotic, and confusing situation.
The only certainty you can pull from that fight is that Ali had Listons number, and that he was great.

 

Wait, wait, wait are you trying to tell me he did not, in reality, handcuff lighting AND throw thunder in jail?

I don't believe you.

 

The time keeper starts the count once a guy goes down but it's only "a count" the official count is the refs count and that can only start once the other guy is in a neutral corner, the ref usually has to pick up the count from the time keeper only once the neutral corner rule is enforced. But the refs count is the official one, and he's not taking up a count until the neutral corner rule is enforced.

In theory Sonny can sit there for half an hour and not get counted out so long as the ref is still occupied with getting the other guy to a neutral corner. Walcott was trying to enforce this but he gave up to listen to a ring sider (Fleischer who had no official capacity) who told him the time keepers count was complete. Walcott should have said "so what". He can only start a count, picked up from the time keeper or not, when Ali is in a neutral corner.

Ali could have blown the Bonavena knockout but was lucky Mark Conn had not noticed Ali followed behind him after going to a neutral corner.

 

I think he was surprised and caught off balance by the punch and went down. That part I think was legit. But the rest... He was looking for a way out. Either because he felt that he was over his head and would be outclassed or because of a fix. I'll go with the former.

It was probably the same with Marciano-Walcott 2.

 

The referee is supposed to make himself aware of where the timekeeper is sitting,prior to the bout starting, in case he needs to pick up the count from him , Walcott did not know where he was .All Fleischer did was draw Walcott's attention to the timekeeper who was a little elderly man and, at his request, state that he had counted Liston out!That was what Fleischer, in his next editorial of the Ring, said he did.
Imagine if Walcott had allowed the fight to continue and Sonny had landed a big shot and ko'd Ali? All the second guessers would be saying forever more that it was not valid because Liston had been down for over ten seconds Douglas v Tyson? Bottom line ,Walcott blew it!
Conn could have given Ali a warning and allowed Oscar some time ,it would have been the same result, he was gone. Moral of the story? Get a decent referee!

 

The time keeper sits with the bell. I know Walcott was somewhat of a celebrity referee but presumably there were more bouts on that card other than the title fight. and whether Walcott was officiating or not during the rest of the bouts he would have been sitting at the officials tables ringside for the evening and it would be impossible for Walcott to not register who the time keeper was, where the bell was and where the time keeper was sitting before he even climbed up into the ring for the main event. In fact, The referee motions to the time keeper to sound the bell once the ring is clear, and each of the judges on each side off the ring have signalled to him that they are ready at the start of a bout. So Walcott had to know who and what the time keeper was. But then again, Walcott was a celebrity ref and the whole set up looked pretty unprofessional for an important fight.

 

A fix definitely isn't out of the question, though. There are some hearsay indication it was a fix: http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston_(2nd_meeting)

I'm a bit skeptical about FBI agents claiming it was a fix (as they have done about the first fight too) when they never launched an investigation. Sounds a bit lame with a police authority saying "Yeah, hearsay has convinced us that there was a crime committed, but we won't bother properly looking into it, though".

 

That was the excuse both Fleischer and the timekeeper gave, he was a little guy so maybe Walcott didn't see him, then again Fleischer was tiny too.

 

He threw similar counter rights against Williams and Folley, so it wasn't like he completely abandoned the use of that punch altogether.

Prior to that point, he had already bounced a couple of hard rights off Liston's head and hadn't been hit with much of anything in return, save for a single right to the flank. Personally, I think the "Anchor Punch" was thrown with enough force and landed well enough to drop an unbalanced Liston to the mat. At that point, Liston flopped...maybe out of frustration or resignation or because in the moment he thought it would allow him to save more face to exit early than to be humiliated any further. I dunno.

Either way, I think it was kind of a "perfect storm" scenario, where a fighter is able to land a shot that has considerably more effect on someone than might be the case under other circumstances.

 

Biggest myth in boxing. You actually hear the punch land. People talk like its a little kid hitting liston. We re talking about a fully fledged heavyweight hitting him. A punch sonny didnt see coming. We even know that if you get hit on the right place it sometimes does funny things to your body. Some murderous punches dont do too much whereas lighter punches often can and do if your hit in the right place.

The thing is with the fix about a minute before the punch liston is hit by what looks like a harder punch and yet doesnt go down. If their was a fix in place for a one round ko why stay up from that punch.

Watching that fight you really do appreciate how skilled ali was back then. Looked like everything worked together ...Body. Legs. Arms. Feet. Was a joy to behold. For me easily most skilled heavyweight of all time.

 

One of the knockdowns of Zora Folley looks more like a dive than the Liston fight.

 

Uh, this is a joke, right?

 

Nope.

 

Did you happen to write an article about this supposed "advanced karate chop punch with torquing action" in a boxing magazine few months after Lewiston in '65?

I was a young kid back then, but I remember my uncle showing me the article and laughing about it. Wish I had kept that mag.

The second Ali-Liston was a farce. (Ali wins in any event)

The "anchor punch" is a joke.