Marciano's Body Frame could easily be Tua and Tyson

Hang on! Did you score the first fight -the one Tucker got the decision for? It is a very iffy decision, and on the strength if that decision Tucker got he shot at Lennox -the highest available level to fight at during the time within the HW division so Norris was right around that top level at HW. Not a champion but good enough to hold his own and Be a bit avoided.

Aside from that, without Norris admittedly being a great fighter I am merely using the example of Norris as somebody who physically operated at roughly the same level within the two weight classes. I dont think it requires me to produce a dominating champion to to demonstrate this. It's purely an example of guy successfully operating at both Tua and Marciano size.

 

You could be onto something.

But I don't think the weight of Rocky on fight night being the weight of Chavez JR on fight night tells the full story.

Technology is cutting edge, I agree there, maybe it's possible with 24 hour weigh ins that a lot of men are now artifically 2 divisions above their real weight.

There clearly are men who boil down to LHW, would those men be better served fighting as fully fit cruiser men or as boiled down LHW men, who can say.

I can only say my interpretation and that is if I'm to pick a peak version of Rocky to parade as a p4p star it would be the comfortable Rocky of 190 pounds.

In terms of conjecture, I said this on another thread, I think it more likely he trains up than down. Nothing to base it on, just my opinion.

 

Solid post. It honestly seems like he can gain or lose weight.
He looks like Gassiev in the first photo, in the sense that he's pure muscle, with a skinny stomach.

By the way, for some reason image embedding only works when I preview a quoted post.
I can never see embedded image in the actual thread. Is that the same for you?

 

I actually agree with this point and appreciate the photos, details and logic behind this theory. It's all good. I believe "things have changed" and its never going to be the same to make a true comparison between two fighters from separate eras within the same weight class ever again for all the reasons you demonstrate here.

Now, the photos of Marciano show him the way he looked eating and training like the best fighters of his era fought. If his face looks fuller if he dosnt looked ripped to the bone and he is still less than 190lb why does it have to mean he cannot weigh more?

Surely all it means (using the eye test) that he still looks like (by today's methods) more could come off and a whole lot more could go on. We don't know if he could weigh more and look thinner in a photo. We really don't.

Micheal Spinks trainer took Spinks lower than 175 BEFORE he built him into the heavyweight to beat Larry Holmes. The explanation at that time was in order to build him up they needed to strip him down further and start over.

Now, I know that's probably a very short explanation for describing a very complicated process but it is non the less how it was put in magazines at that time. It is very well documented.

Now, supposing you start over, build the guy up, then dehydrate him from the newer enhanced build (for instance a photo of Spinks looking fuller at 175) then build him up outside of recognised boxing (like he was) into 200 odd pounds (then get him to dry out) chances are he could look emaciated at 190. Spinks at 190 could look like Conner in that weigh-in photo even though Spinks previously looked much fuller at 175!

Now if that all sounds like hogwash and people want to get pedantic and say "but Spinks was a 6 foot plus guy! He can carry it" how does one explain Orlin Norris?

 

You've got to think of it like this, cutting weight these days and staying strong is massively helped by certain substances administered into the body....

 

Yes mother nature can be cheated on to scale not even conceivable in Marcianos day.

Holyfeild never would have gotten bigger than Charles. Lennox Lewis and heavyweights his height would never have gotten bigger than Ernie Terrell. There wouldn't be a SHW ideal.

Do you think Tyson and Tua never would have gotten any bigger than Joe Frazier?

 

I'm talking about weight cutting specifically. Certain substances allow you to reach such low body fat levels yet remain strong and healthy that would be impossible naturally. Take a look at these fitness models, they are way more ripped than the likes of Arnie ever was and they are like that basically all year round....

 

Fitness models are very likely to dehydrate before a shoot or show.

Low water levels in your body makes your muscles look much more defined.

 

Yes they do but their water and body fat levels are below healthy levels all year long. It would not be possible to live like that naturally.

 

i agree. its just not naturally acheived in a conventional sense. but if this means guys cant be heavier and still look ripped i would disagree. marciano looking less ripped right fown to nothing does not mean he was already carrying an excess or that he wasnt drained enough. it just means he had not followed a future process that was unavailable back then.

before spinks was built into a HW he was first put on a diet so that his whole musculature and body shape could be redesigned and built up in a different way so as to comfortably redistribute extra mass. i have no doubt after this event and he was cut down again he could still be heavier than his previous original weight whilst looking lean and drawn.

 

Depends who you are.

The point is, in 1990 Douglas was at Tyson's level, or higher. Whether that's the "highest level", I don't know.

I think most real champions, barring a very few, reach the highest level for at least one or two fights. And inspired losing challengers often do too.
...... Unless we start dividing the levels down to who the absolute best fighter is ..... but the "top level = 1 fighter" thing seems pointless the more I consider it.

I think Joe Louis was harder to beat, but it's hard to say exactly "how hard he was to beat" in the 2nd Schmeling fight, seeing as it only lasted 2 minutes.

Charles looked pretty amazing against Marciano, over the full 15, to be fair. He showed his grit.

 

I agree. Even if Louis was at the pinnacle of his powers blowing away Schmeling..It's still a blow out. Obviously the best man wins, it rightly goes down as a great win but it's only a blow out with nothing coming back. A bag work out. Fortunately every punch was picture perfect and it was all over before it got going. The other man did not get started and that's really as much to do with a guy winning by blow out as the other guy l being hit with punches. You can't ever account for the other man not getting started or that he gets hurt before he can get going. You can plan for it, aim for it, but it's a bonus if it works out. You put another guy in place of a blow out victim on that night and there is no saying the replacement provides the same openings or that the other guy hits his mojo in exactly the same way.

At HW Charles probably was never much better.