RJJ or James Toney?

But he didn't, though. He said that Jones had a much easier time with McCallum in 1996 than Toney had in 1997. I'm not sure I agree, but it's a completely different claim than what you're trying to make it out to be.

I'm not sure anybody have said that, but, yes, it would be wrong. Nunn's star had faded somewhat since then when he met Toney, though.

But Nunn was a very good fighter and I rank Toney's win over him very highly. But many mean that he was on the slide by then since he partied too much. And I see no reason to take those excuses any more or less seriously than those made for Toney's loss to Jones.

You're trying to pass it off like Toney beat Nunn at his peak while Jones only beat a shell of Toney. That is a fan boy talking.

 

Yep. Toney had a hard time finding not only Nunn but also Reggie Johnson, so it's not a big chock that he couldn't find Jones at all.

He always looked his best against guys that came straight at him like Barkley, Jirov, Ruiz and Peters (I think he definitely won the first fight), but against fleet footed fighters it was just a different thing altogether.

 

Hey Bok, I understand your point and where you're coming from, I just can't get behind it. I can't think of a win Jones had that compares to Toney beating Nunn and McCallum is better than Jones' best wins, even his win over Toney. Even a "slipping" Nunn as you call him, is still light years above most people on Roy's resume imo. When you add in Jirov, I think it's somewhat decisive, though, you've made me change it from decisive.. to somewhat.

 

And I think that's a highly biased opinion. Toney is by any nearly objective standard the best name on any of their resumes. He was ranked nr 1 or nr 2 p4p and Jones outclassed him. Toney has nothing like that.

To change this fact you must do some highly biased reasoning.

 

Toney is a better win than Nunn. Hopkins is somewhat hard to compare to Jirov since they are from different weight classes, but one can make the case for Hopkins since he went on to unbeaten for 12 years, including a long title reign.

But if you cast doubt on all of Jones' wins but don't do the same for Toney, of course Toney will come off better. But the reverse is also true.

For me Nunn, Jirov, Ruiz, Holy and Barkley is probably somewhat better wins than what Jones has. But as I said, Jones overall resume more than makes up for it by being flawless pre Tarver and doing better against common opponents. I just don't see how you can argue against that.

 

He didn't look like a "lost cause" beating a still formidable Prince Charles Williams at the same weight, a mere few months before the Jones loss.

 

I never seen anyone claim that that was a strong era. But even beating average contenders for a long time isn't all that easy. Toney, who should have lost his title to Tiberi, is testament to that.

What you're basically doing is putting down others' achievements while glossing over the quite glaring flaws in Toney's.

 

Nunn is probably Toney's best win.
Second best win is probably the second McCallum fight (1992)
Neither Nunn nor McCallum were absolute prime, it should be noted. McCallum was best at 154 lbs. and Nunn was showing slippage post Kalambay
Jirov was a face first slugger who threw a lot of punches. He outworked Toney in stretches, but was wide ope for the counters that eventually added up and hurt him.
Williams was once a formidalbe 175 champ but had already lost to Maske and had to drain down to 168 to fight Toney.
Holyfiled was a shot shell of what he once was.
Barkley was past his best and was tailor made style wise for Toney.
Ruiz was never that good, and Jones beat him before Toney fought him.

Jones beat Toney - easily
He beat a very good but not yet prime Hopkins - easily. I was at that fight.
He destroyed Montell Griffin - that's probably his best win at 175 lbs.
Toney lost controverially to Griffin.

He beat McCallum, but after McCallum had already lost the title to . Tiozzo. Toney's draw and decision over McCallum at 160lbs trump that Jones win. He did beat McCallum at 175 lbs more emphatically than Toney did at 175.

He beat Virgil Hill, who was past prime but still very good. But he beat him emphatically, so that's a plus.
He had a lot of defenses, but the quality of opponent was often lacking.
He beat Ruiz easily, before Toney fought Ruiz.
He did beat Tarver in their first fight, although it was close.

Nunn and 160 lb McCallum are probably slightly better than 1993 Hopkins. But Jones easily beating Toney head to head probably counters that.

Overall, Jones was the better fighter and their resumes are close.

I'd say Jones sheer number of title fight wins, better showing against common opposition and win over Toney, makes his resume slightly better than Toney's resume.

Jones was more dominant and consistent - until after the Ruiz fight. But, by then he had built up a tremendous record.

Jones > Toney.

 

Interesting analysis but some of your points are wrong in my opinion.In fact, Nunn was in his absolute prime when Toney beat him.

Prince Williams was in formidable shape, threw helluva lot of punches.Toney just dismantled him.

Jirov was an olympic gold medalist and regarded as the best cruiserweight at the time.I would not refer to him as a face first brawler.

Toney dominated Mc Callum at 175 pounds. I am not sure Jones did any better.

Yes Holyfield was shot.But Toney only became the 2nd man to stop him.

 

Well the losses of Toney do not make a better case for Jones.It shows that fighters like Thadzi and Tiberi can beat a weight drained Toney, this somewhat puts Jones victory over Toney in perspective

 

You just said you thought Toney's win over Charles Williams was excellent.

It happened right before the Jones loss

Can't you see that the issue was not weight, but styles and quality of the opponent? That Jones possessed the hand and foot speed that was too much for Toney to overcome. That, at the same time, Williams chugged forward and Toney could counter effectively without having to use much foot movement.

 

So that Toney had many more losses than Jones doesn't help Jones' argument for having a stronger resume than Toney? Jesus, that is some logic.