In MMA a Loss Doesn't Mean as Much as Boxing

As far as #5 goes, I remember looking into how many professional mma fighters there were two or three years ago and it was only 2,400 in the world. Meanwhile, boxrec lists 24,000 active professional boxers.

It may be more now, but that is one small talent pool. I don't know how mma fans can keep a straight face when they say that the talent level is just as deep in their sport as it is in boxing. We have 2,190 welterweights. You'd have to cut 9/10ths of the boxers from the sport to make them comparable. Which ultimately means that the number 1 fighter in an mma division is likely only as talented as the number 10 rated guy in a boxing weight class.

Then when you just think about the numbers there, the UFC has about 400 mixed martial artists on it's payroll. They literally have hired 1/6th or 16 percent of the workforce. How is that super elite? If they have that many guys in the organization, how can the best possibly be fighting the best?

 

Mate, I usually respect your opinion, but how aren't they the biggest company?

Why do they need to "Scout" fighters when the divisions CM competes in are loaded? Stop being a Boxing fanboy.

 

I didn't say they aren't the biggest company and I'm not a fanboy. It's you that is refusing to see an obvious conflict of interest. I'm not telling you not to enjoy what your watching or that there aren't great fighters in the UFC but if your going to be critical about one sport you have to be objective about the other

 

The size advantage doesn't compensate for the fact that he didn't train for the fight. You would never see a fighter in boxing against an opponent who hadn't sparred at all get beaten and worn down late in a fight. It just makes no sense. The sharpness and conditioning should make a huge difference, a much bigger one than size, especially in the exchanges they were having.

There's nothing odd about being an already accomplished athlete and slowly rising to championship status after 12 years of professional fighting. Many fighters start boxing in their teens and become champions by their mid 20's. Martinez made his debut at 22, became champion for less than 4 years at 35, and retired at 39. He just moved the timeframe ahead but the time it took him to become a champion isn't that different to what champions usually go through.

Learning boxing in prison is also nothing strange. Mike Tyson first learned to box in prison, as did Dwight Muhammad Qawi, as did Sonny Liston, as did Ron Lyle.

Flintoff having a pro bout means nothing. Charlie Zelenoff had a pro bout. It's irrelevant.

 

The "best don't fight the best" in boxing has also been overblown thanks to the prolonged Pacquiao-Mayweather drama. In 2015 and 2016, even though 2016 was a terrible year, in that span a vast majority of the divisions had fights that settled who was top dog, at least for the time being.

Heavyweight: Klitschko vs. Fury
Cruiserweight: Uysk vs. Glowacki
Light-Heavyweight: Kovalev vs. Pascal/Hopkins/Ward (Stevenson ducked but he's now less relevant)
Middleweight: Golovkin-Lemieux
Jr. Middleweight: Lara/Cotto-Canelo, Charlo-Williams
Welterweight: JMM-Pacquiao, Mayweather-Pacquiao, Brook/Thurman-Porter
Junior Welterweight: Postol-Matthysse/Crawford-Postol
Lightweight: Linares-Mitchell/Crolla
Super Featherweight: Lomachenko-Walters
Featherweight: LSC-Frampton
Jr. Featherweight: Donaire-Magdaleno
Super Flyweight: Gonzales-Cuadras
Flyweight: Gonzales-Viloria

The ones missing are Rigondeaux vs. anyone, GGG-Canelo, and I guess Stevenson-Kovalev. But those are very likely on their way, along with a bunch of good fights lined up for 2017. Already these look likely:

Heavyweight: Klitschko-Joshua
Light-Heavyweight: Ward-Kovalev 2
Middleweight: Golovkin-Jacobs/Canelo
Jr. Middleweight: Charlo-Andrade
Welterweight: Thurman-Garcia
Junior Welterweight: Crawford-Pacquiao/Burns 2/Indogo
Lightweight: Linares-Mikey Garcia/Crolla 2
Super Featherweight: Lomachenko-
Featherweight: LSC-Frampton 2
Jr. Featherweight: Donaire-Magdaleno
Super Flyweight: Gonzales-Cuadras 2/Inoue

One title wouldn't make the more contested divisions any more easy to settle. If Thurman were the only one with a belt, that wouldn't answer the question of whether Spence or Garcia or Khan could beat Thurman. Deep divisions mean uncertainty, and dominant fighters make titles pretty irrelevant. Crawford already cleaned out the top 5 rated fighters at 140, everyone knows he's the best there.

 

Name me better 145'ers and 155'ers that aren't in the UFC...

 

Bud, he was a WEIGHTCLASS ABOVE the weight class he is at now, and TWO at the time of that fight. Do you not get that?

No, MANY Boxers DON'T take the game up in their 20's and do well. Name me 10...

Sergio, as much as I love the guy, was a failed Cyclist.

 

And multiple belts do?

If only Thurman had the belt, he'd be fighting the best every time. Multiple belts mean multiple pointless mandatories = the best not fighting the best.

So Crawford is the best at 140. Big wow. Who's the clear cut No.1 at 147/154/160/175/205/205+? There isn't one. Ask yourself why that is.

 

Best Fight the Best Last 15 Years
2001
Bernard Hopkins vs Felix Trinidad
Marco Antonio Barrera vs Naseem Hamed
Floyd Mayweather vs Diego Corrales
Felix Trinidad vs William Joppy
Kostya Tszyu vs Zab Judah
Rafael Marquez vs Mark Johnson
2002
Shane Mosley vs Vernnon Forrest
Marco Antonio Barrera vs Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera vs Johnny Tapia
Floyd Mayweather vs Jose Luis Castillo
Oscar De La Hoya vs Fernando Vargas
Erik Morales vs Paulie Ayala
Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson
Rafael Marquez vs Mark Johnson
2003
Shane Mosley vs Oscar De La Hoya
Bernard Hopkins vs William Joppy
Roy Jones Jr vs John Ruiz
Marco Antonio Barrera vs Manny Pacquiao
Lennox Lewis vs Vitali Klitschko
James Toney vs Vassiliy Jirov
2004
Shane Mosley vs Winky Wright
Bernard Hopkins vs Oscar De La Hoya
Roy Jones Jr vs Antonio Tarver
Marco Antonio Barrera vs Paulie Ayala
Marco Antonio Barrera vs Erik Morales
Felix Trinidad vs Ricardo Mayorga
Manny Pacquiao vs Juan Manuel Marquez
2005
Bernard Hopkins vs Jermain Taylor
Roy Jones Jr vs Antonio Tarver
Felix Trinidad vs Ronald Wright
Kostya Tszyu vs Ricky Hatton
Erik Morales vs Manny Pacquiao
Jose Luis Castillo vs Diego Corrales
2006
Shane Mosley vs Fernando Vargas
Bernard Hopkins vs Antonio Tarver
Oscar De la Hoya vs Ricardo Mayorga
Erik Morales vs Manny Pacquiao
2007
Shane Mosley vs Miguel Cotto
Bernard Hopkins vs Ronald Wright
Marco Antonio Barrera vs Juan Manuel Marquez
Marco Antonio Barrera vs Manny Pacquiao
Floyd Mayweather vs Oscar De La Hoya
Floyd Mayweather vs Ricky Hatton
Jose Luis Castillo vs Ricky Hatton
Miguel Cotto vs Zab Judah
Rafael Marquez vs Israel Vazquez
Nonito Donaire vs Vic Darchinyan
2008
Shane Mosley vs Ricardo Mayorga
Bernard Hopkins vs Joe Calzaghe
Bernard Hopkins vs Kelly Pavlik
Oscar De La Hoya vs Manny Pacquiao
Manny Pacquiao vs Juan Manuel Marquez
Miguel Cotto vs Antonio Margarito
Rafael Marquez vs Israel Vazquez
Carl Froch vs Jean Pascal
2009
Shane Mosley vs Antonio Margarito
Manny Pacquiao vs Ricky Hatton
Manny Pacquiao vs Miguel Cotto
Juan Manuel Marquez vs Floyd Mayweather Jr
Sergio Martinez vs Paul Williams
Andre Ward vs Mikkel Kessler
Carl Froch vs Jermain Taylor
2010
Shane Mosley vs Floyd Mayweather Jr
Bernard Hopkins vs Roy Jones Jr
Bernard Hopkins vs Jean Pascal
Manny Pacquiao vs Antonio Margarito
Ivan Calderon vs Giovanni Segura
Nonito Donaire vs Hernan Marquez
Pongsaklek Wonjongkam vs Koki Kameda
Sergio Martinez vs Paul Williams
Sergio Martinez vs Kelly Pavlik
Andre Ward vs Sakio Bika
Fernando Montiel vs Hozumi Hasegawa
Carl Froch vs Mikkel Kessler
Carl Froch vs Arthur Abraham
2011
Shane Mosley vs Manny Pacquiao
Bernard Hopkins vs Jean Pascal
Manny Pacquiao vs Juan Manuel Marquez
Miguel Cotto vs Ricardo Mayorga
Miguel Cotto vs Antonio Margarito
Ivan Calderon vs Giovanni Segura
Wladimir Klitschko vs David Haye
Nonito Donaire vs Fernando Montiel
Nonito Donaire vs Omar Narvaez
Pongsaklek Wonjongkam vs Edgar Sosa
Paul Williams vs Erislandy Lara
Andre Ward vs Arthur Abraham
Andre Ward vs Carl Froch
Brian Viloria vs Giovani Segura
2012
Shane Mosley vs Saul Alvarez
Floyd Mayweather vs Miguel Cotto
Manny Pacquiao vs Tim Bradley
Manny Pacquiao vs Juan Manuel Marquez
Roman Gonzalez vs Juan Francisco Estrada
Sergio Martinez vs Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
Andre Ward vs Chad Dawson
Brian Viloria vs Hernan Marquez
Danny Garcia vs Amir Khan
Carl Froch vs Lucian Bute
2013
Floyd Mayweather vs Saul Alvarez
Nonito Donaire vs Guillermo Rigondeaux
Nonito Donaire vs Vic Darchinyan
Juan Francisco Estrada vs Brian Viloria
Tim Bradley vs Juan Manuel Marquez
Danny Garcia vs Lucas Matthysse
Carl Froch vs Mikkel Kessler
Carl Froch vs George Groves
2014
Bernard Hopkins vs Sergey Kovalev
Manny Pacquiao vs Tim Bradley
Miguel Cotto vs Sergio Martinez
Wladimir Klitschko vs Alexander Povetkin
Nonito Donaire vs Nicholas Walters
Roman Gonzalez vs Akira Yaegashi
Juan Francisco Estrada vs Giovani Segura
Terence Crawford vs Yuriorkis Gamboa
Vasyl Lomachenko vs Gary Russell Jr
Naoya Inoue vs Omar Narvaez
Kell Brook vs Shawn Porter
2015
Floyd Mayweather vs Manny Pacquiao
Miguel Cotto vs Saul Alvarez
Wladimir Klitschko vs Tyson Fury
Roman Gonzalez vs Edgar Sosa
Roman Gonzalez vs Brian Viloria
Juan Francisco Estrada vs Hernan Marquez
Sergey Kovalev vs Jean Pascal
Gennady Golovkin vs David Lemieux
Krzysztof Glowacki vs Marco Huck
2016
Manny Pacquiao vs Tim Bradley
Terence Crawford vs Viktor Postol
Sergey Kovalev vs Jean Pascal
Keith Thurman vs Shawn Porter
Oleksandr Usyk vs Krzysztof Glowacki
Leo Santa Cruz vs Carl Frampton
Krzysztof Glowacki vs Steve Cunningham
Roman Gonzalez vs Carlos Cuadras

You might say that the best fight the best more than eight times a year in mma, but these guys I've listed are pound for pound type guys fighting the best in their division. We have 17 divisions and like 80 belt holders. There are constant unifications and guys fighting their mandatories among them. We just don't tend to call that the best fighting the best in boxing like they do in mma, because all of the attention is focused up the latter at May/Pac, GGG/Canelo, or Kovalev/Ward. But really, these types of match ups happen almost every day in boxing. You check the upcoming title fights and there are all kinds of high quality competitive match ups happening on the reg in Thailand, Japan, Germany, or Venezuela which we never hear about because they don't air in the states. Like Bogotazo said above me, the best do fight the best in boxing, and the perception that they don't has been exaggerated based in part on a couple of big fights not coming off.

 

I do. It still doesn't compensate for the fact he didn't train. Size matters much less than timing, sharpness, conditioning, and offensive/defense preparedness. Take an elite top soccer or football or basketball team, or tennis player, and tell them to do nothing for months, and have them play against a lesser skilled contender team/player who has been training competitively for a proper period. It will make the difference.

Sure I can name 10:

Rocky Marciano-made his pro debut at 24 after going 8-4 as an amateur. He went back to amateur after his debut and eventually won his first title around 30.
Sonny Liston-turned pro in his 20's after just one year of amateur fights.
Ken Norton-learned to box in the marines, made his pro debut at 24.
Earnie Shavers-started boxing at 22.
Nate Campbell-turned pro at 26. Didn't box as an amateur until 24.
Mauricio Herrera-turned pro at 27 after 30 amateur bouts.
Adonis Stevenson-turned pro at 29 and won his first amateur titles at 27.
Bryant Jennings-turned pro at 25, went only 13-4 as an amateur.
Dwight Muhammad Qawi-learned to box in prison in his 20's.
Ron Lyle-learned to box in prison in his 20's.

But that's besides the point. The point is it took Sergio just as long as it takes a young man to reach championship level status, he just got there later because he started later.

No, but dominance and popular rankings do.

But he is fighting the best. He just fought Porter and is fighting Garcia next. Meanwhile Spence is making a name for himself. Brook would be in the mix if he hadn't moved up.

147-Thurman (or the semi-retired Pac), has the best recent win over Porter
154-Charlo, proved it by beating Williams
160-GGG, utterly dominant
175-whoever you think won Ward-Kovalev
205 is not a division. Cruiserweight is 200 and Glowacki is #1 there.
Heavyweight-Klitschko thanks to Fury's mental health issues.

The only ambiguity is slightly with welterweight because all the top contenders are young and fighting each other now, and Canelo hasn't defined himself in the mix because he's milking his celebrity. Every division either has a clear number 1 or is in the process of settling it.

 

The Diaz Bros. are training freaks. When they don't compete in MMA they're competing in Triathlons.

So you can name ten boxers that took up the sport late and that's fine, but it's a bad thing when they take up MMA late?

Er, no it isn't besides the point that Sergio took forever to win a belt. He started late and was a failed Cyclist. End of.

I rate Keith's ability, but his resume is thin. Porter is his best win. Guerrero, Bundu, Diaz - that's weak for a guy of his stature.

Man... The first answer is two-fold.

Charlo is the best 154'er going? Lol.

MW is still up for grabs.

LHW is a three horse race.

But Bellew has the main bauble at CW

Wlad is still No.1 despite being inactive for two years and not having any straps? Ok.

 

Which doesn't prepare you to fight people. Not sparring at all and beating a champion fighter who had a full training camp is ridiculous.

I never made that claim, it was you who randomly brought up Martinez and Hopkins to attack boxing.

He started late and took the standard amount of time. There was no shortcut. It means nothing.

His career hasn't peaked yet. He's about to fight Garcia to further establish his supremacy.

He just proved it by knocking out Williams.

How? Golovkin is the most dominant fighter operating in the division bar none. You're making it sound like if a fighter has opponents left to fight they aren't a clear #1.

Nah. Stevenson is a good fight to make but he's clearly behind Kovalev and Ward on performance and resume.

So?

The same thing would happen in MMA if the newly crowned champion vacated and retired for mental health reasons. The next two best fighters would fight, and Wlad is fighting Joshua.

Basically every division has a clear head, so your argument has failed.

 

You are way off.

You seem to not mention that Conor was fighting for THE FIRST TIME IN HIS CAREER at 170. TWO divisions above what he first started competing in in the UFC.

So? He still started AFTER failing to do anything in Cycling. You made out that anybody can walk into MMA but not Boxing. That's lies.

Hasn't peaked? Course it hasn't. Boxers only peak after FORTY fights. Even his resume for the amount of fights he had is poor.

What about Lara? Andrade?

Stevenson banjoed the main man at LHW in Dawson.

No, not every division does have a clear head, you idiot, as there is there too many titles for there to be a clear head.

 

I stated that it doesn't compensate. A size advantage and no camp should not win you a fight.

Quote anywhere I suggested that. I'll wait.

And like I said, it took him the same amount of time to become a champion it took anyone else. The fact he was a cyclist is irrelevant.

Chaves, Quintana, Collazo, Diaz, Bundu, JSK, Guerrero, Porter, and Garcia next is not a poor resume. Thurman has the best recent win at welter and if he beats Garcia will be even more clearly ahead in the division.

Charlo has the same trainer as Lara so they likely won't fight, but Andrade is next in line for Charlo. Andrade doesn't have a win that compares to Williams so nobody should have him above Charlo.

Then made himself irrelevant. In a one-champ world his career choices are the equivalent of being stripped. Nobody considers him the man in the division.

I just explained already why nearly every division has a clear head and you have no rebuttal. Just because you don't know enough to figure it out doesn't mean the rest of boxing fans can't. We'd all give you similar answers and any questions are due to the fact some good fights are being made now that will further establish each division. It's nearly or as clear as it would be with one champ. Wlad and AJ fighting for the vacated belts, Ward and Kovalev rematching at LHW, Usyk, DeGale, Golovkin, Charlo/Lara (stablemates), Thurman/Pac (semiretired), Crawford, Linares, Lomachenko, Frampton, Rigondeaux, Yamanaka, Inoue, Gonzales. There's no mass confusion at all.

 

You hate MMA. There is no point in me "debating" with you about the sport.

Just remember this: There's more than one way to skin a cat.

And starting a sport at 5 years old, running 10 miles a day, doing 3000 sit up's a week, having 25 fights before you fight a live body, and holding a belt whilst calling yourself a "champion" whilst there are 2-4 other "champions" in your weight class is only one of them.