Name for name: Carl Froch resume vs Joe Calzaghe resume

How was Eubank no longer a world class fighter ? the eubank that calz beat was a highler level fighter than Bute ever reached his entire career. if eubank was no longer world class at that time then Bute never reached world class.

Bute at no point in his career could had beat any weight Eubank. we're talking an A level fighter vs a hugely flawed B- fighter. Bute with his massively hindering stamina issues never had the ability (physically) to reach the level eubank spent a good decade residing in.

We can't ignore Bute being tko'd by Andrade with a hugely corrupt ref physically saving him and prolonging the count till the round was over. Bute easily won the rematch but he showed his limitations by being beaten pillar to post by Andrade, a showcase opponent.

Froch and Bute put on a very great fight, froch having the better chin won him that fight, but that was a fight going in had 1 possible ending and it ended exactly how a fight between them would end 100% of the time.

Eubank from around the calz fight beats Bute in similar fashion, Bute was never an A level fighter and that's the best name froch has throughout his entire career. I never rated Bute as a top 5 fighter in his division.

That's the thing with this sport, every single thing except fight results is all subjective. I feel only wins count towards ones resume in a positive light, I feel calz beat better fighters than froch beat and it's not too close, for me.

There's nothing anyone can tell me that would change my opinions that I strongly believe to be fact. I would hope you feel they same with your opinion. Neither of us can be right or wrong on opinions

 

he wasnt at smw.

wheres your proof that he was? onus is on you.

 

Loudon appears to me to have an agenda and has ducked my questions several times.
Eubank had mixed in high company and was a top SMW, 31 years of age.
Bute at 32 had just had arguably his biggest SMW win over faded G Johnson coming off a loss. The same G Johnson who at SMW had lost many fights and had lost against Sheika to get the spot to face Calzaghe.
That shows the difference in levels yet somehow Loudon will waffle without much sense about Bute at that time being a more highly regarded win than beating a SMW legend like Eubank who until Calzaghe had never clearly been beaten and fought many top names at SMW.
Just look at Eubanks SMW resume. It is excellent.

 

can this get answere, or else " he was at that point top smw" is just going to b e ablatant lie, until it is answered. thx.

 

Eubank wasn't a Super Middleweight at the time he fought Calzaghe. He was a Light Heavyweight. He dropped down a division on 11 days notice after Collins retired citing a lack of motivation to fight anyone who wasn't Roy Jones Jr. Eubank hadn't fought at Super Middleweight since losing to Steve Collins in September 1995 - almost two years before he fought Calzaghe.

He had been a top Super Middleweight, and he had fought more significant names in the division than anyone in the 1990's, but he had been retired for over a year and was early into a comeback at a higher weight division and hadn't fought anyone significant since Collins - his only two fights since then had been against Luis Dionisio Barrera (who was coming into the fight on a record of 3 wins and 6 loses in his previous ten fights) and Camilo Alarcon (who had a better win/loss record but was only 12 fights into his pro career and coming in off a loss).

This was not Eubank at the height of his powers, this was a diminished Eubank a couple years out of his prime, shortly out of a years retirement, only two fights into a Light Heavyweight comeback, and having suffered a crash diet over slightly over a week to make weight.

Bute was the longest reigning active World Champion at Super Middleweight, the only significant fighter in the division who had not been invited to join the Super Six, who had been widely recognized as one of the three best fighters in the division since 2007, and was legitimately considered the only rival Andre Ward had to the title of Super Middleweight King.

He was a legitimate force within the division at the height of his career and arguably in his prime physical state.

Nobody is trying to argue that Eubank wasn't a much better, more accomplished and successful fighter at Super Middleweight than Bute. Nobody is trying to suggest that Bute would be anywhere near Eubank in the list of all time great Super Middleweights.

It is purely a matter of where they were in their respective careers when they fought Calzaghe and Froch, and it is inarguable that Bute was a hell of a lot closer to his prime, and more highly regarded within the division at the time, when he fought Froch than Eubank was when he fought Calzaghe - nobody was arguing that Eubank was one of the potential Kings of the Super Middleweight division in 1997.

 

There was a link with Eubank, which Im sure Loudon has seen. Cant be bothered to look for it now, but Eubank had said SMW wasnt a problem and he said something along the lines of going to LHW due to not getting another fight with Collins but if he had a title to offer may get another fight with him. He said he could fight at SMW, LHW or CW.
I expect Eubank was motivated for a world title shot.
Mayweather had big gaps in boxing. Fury may return and has been out of the ring for a long time. Mosely didnt fight for a around a year before he fought Floyd.
I do recall the time as I was interested in the Collins/Calzaghe fight.
At 45 Eubank was saying he was a LHW so do you think at 31 and in training it was very far removed from normal?

Many fighters have tune ups and breaks. You are trying to make it into something completely unheard of which it isnt. For example J Toney and Jones Jnr fought some fighters of similar level during title reigns as stay busy fights.
L Bute after losing to Froch had 3 fights at a higher weight and was out of SMW for over 3 years before facing Degale, had not fought anyone who would be considered high level since Pascal and when facing Degale had a record of 2-2 in his last 4 fights. See how easy it is to find other examples?

Eubank was still a top fighter!

I understand that Eubank often made weight late. I think I recall hearing that Calzaghe was something like 14 stone fight week when he faced Jones. Many fighters make weight in the last week and Eubank was training to fight for that night and lets not forget how many times Eubank had made weight for SMW title fights.

Im not disputing Bute was a good SMW at that time but he wasnt at the level of say Eubank, Calzaghe, Jones etc. He was a SMW world champ but arguably his biggest win was faded G Johnson coming off a loss. That was the level he had been at and then compare that to Eubank and it doesnt compare. Its like saying Bute would be a better SMW than Kessler when Kessler had been inactive, had a few tuneups even been inside LHW, but I dont think Bute would have beaten a faded Kessler or a Eubank

I understand that and understand your point but dont believe that version of Bute at 32 would have beaten that version of Eubank at 31 at all and if he did it would have been Butes most massive win and bigger than any SMW had at that time in my opinion

Theres that word that gets used to suit. Prime. Was G Foreman in his prime when he beat Moorer? You are basing your assessment on being undefeated and not fighting at the same level as Eubank which is ridiculous. Do you think Bute would have been as successful if he was facing Wharton, Benn, Holmes, Malinga, Close, Watson, Thornton. If you think Bute would have got through all of those then I wont agree but will let that be your opinion but if you dont and think Bute may have lost one or more of those would you say he was still prime? Its that word prime!

An old post below so dont be offended with how it is written

How far past prime was Eubank to you then?
Eubank had lost a close decision to Collins, that many thought he won, had a couple of tune ups and rematched Collins to a SD, had a couple of tune ups and lost clearly to underdog Calzaghe. After that loss Eubank went up to CW and challenged world champ Thompson losing a very close decision and then rematched Thompson losing on injury when ahead. Thats Thompson who years later past his best KOd D Haye.
Consider Eubank only had 2 losses to one fighter when he fought Calzaghe, the second by SD to a world champ and was 31 then went on to challenge a big CW flooring him etc, how past his prime do YOU think he was?
Remember Kessler is Wards big win and was the same age as Eubank here and had around the same amount of fights, so is Kessler shot as well, because Kessler has a serious eye problems and was an unwell double vision suffering fighter who has been inactive for a while now due to his injury


Remember when you make silly comments about losses was G Johnson considered past his prime when years ago after losing to Hopkins he went 7-9-2 including the Hopkins loss

 

I dont doubt Eubank's ability to make Super Middleweight in 97 and still be effective there, but the fact of the matter was that he was not competing at Super Middleweight regularly and was preparing to fight Mark Prince at Light Heavyweight when the WBO asked him to step in for Collins at short notice.

Regardless of how great a Super Middleweight Eubank had been you have to recognize that stepping in late against Calzaghe and having to go on a crash diet over 11 days to make weight was hardly an ideal scenario.

I brought up the record of Eubank's two Light Heavyweight opponents purely because you were making a big deal about Glen Johnson's and his record trying to mark down Bute's significance at the time Froch beat him.

Eubank's most recent opponents prior to fighting Calzaghe were of inferior quality to Bute's most recent prior to fighting Froch, and if you're trying to mark down Bute for beating an opponent who had lost in his previous fight then you have to recognize that Eubank has the same mark against him.

Eubank was training to fight at a higher weight and had to go on a crash diet to make Super Middlewieght to fight Calzaghe. That was able to do so and make the wieght is a credit to his discipline and determination, and that he was able to put in a such a good performance in spite of the less than perfect circumstances gets him a ton of respect, but it doesn't change the fact that he was a late substitute.

Your problem here is that Eubank hadn't been fighting at the top level for almost two years when he fought Calzaghe. As I have said, he'd had a year off in retirement had hadn't fought anyone significant since his comback. His last significant opponent was Collins in 95 and he was a long way removed the Eubank of 93/94 in both ability and quality of opposition.

Bute's level of opposition may not have been anything spectacular but you cant really claim Eubank's most recent opposition was better.

I'd put money on the 97 version of Eubank beating the prime version of Bute - Eubank was a better fight - but Eubank was not at the time of fighting Calzaghe a significant force in boxing anymore whereas Bute at the time of fighting Froch was.

I'm basing my assesment on each man's individual career and where they were at the time, not on someone being undefeated.

Eubank of 96/97/98 was not as good as Eubank of 91/92/93/94 - he wasn't fighting to that level anymore and his quality of opposition was not of the same standard as it had been in his pomp - whereas Bute was in the middle of his best run as fighter both in terms of his levels of oppositon and his level of performance - you being so fond of bringing up Johnson going into his fight with Bute off loss will no doubt know that loss was to Carl Froch and Bute beat Johnson in far more dominant fashion.

If Bute had been active in the early 90's I doubt he would have got anywhere near a world title because that was the strongest the division has ever been - unless he was part of the scramble for the WBC belt.

Eubank was 2/3 years past his best by the time he fought Calzaghe and he only had himself to blame for setting such a grueling schedule for himself in 1994 - 67 rounds in one year wore him down and wore him out, and I remain convinced that the Eubank that beat Rocchigiani would have beaten Collins. He hastened his own demise as a top fighter in the Super Middleweight division.

He was still a dangerous opponent beyond his prime and was capable of being competitive in World Title fights, and I have all the respect in the world for him as a fighter, but you cant honestly believe that he hadn't diminished from his glory days fighting Watson and Benn.

 

A late notice change of opponent is not good for either fighter. It was a change for Calzaghe also, like for Lewis and Vitali, but like that situation they were in training and there was 11 days notice. Who says it was a crash diet? How do you know Eubank didnt make weight until the last few days? It was 11 days.
Once again Bute hadnt been at SMW for even longer, was older and not with a record like Eubank but went on to fight Degale at SMW.
Cherifi was a late opponent for Reid at SMW but he gave a great account of himself

I was not trying too mark down. It was a fact. You are trying to compare a couple of tune ups that Eubank had as something abnormal when its not unusual to have tune ups whereas Butes arguably biggest SMW fight was at SMW arguably not better, so with Butes lack of top level experience you think Bute was better?

Once again you are comparing a tune up to a world title fight but if you really look at it and even with that tune up, Eubank fought a fighter who was coming off a loss from a former SMW world champ who had never been stopped and who was around 30 whereas Bute was fighting a boiled down fighter in his 40s, who at SMW had fought better comp but lost to worse comp than Eubanks opponent and had over 10 losses

Yet you seem to rate Butes prep of facing G Johnson who was a boiled down LHW. You also forget that Eubank felt he still had years in him and that he felt he could fight at SMW as well as LHW or CW. You seem to move away from all of this. Eubank was a late sub for Calzaghe also but you seem to miss that out also. Once again show me where it was this sudden crash diet when at 45 Eubank was only a LHW

As said many fighters have a bit of time out but then if you feel that, what was the top level Bute had been fighting at? We will compare the 2 and it wouldnt be favourable to your argument

Once again you are comparing tune ups. Its like saying look at Toneys level of comp before facing Jirov. Ridiculous. Fighters have tune ups. That doesnt suddenly mean they are not world class. As said Jones and Tioney had tune ups during title reigns.
Should V Klitschko not have had the fight with champ S Peter as he had retired? It shows you to be wrong

So with that, Calzaghe beat the better fighter in your opinion. Agreed and what has been argued all along. I understood what you were saying but I felt Calzaghes win was the better due to facing what I think was a better fighter and here you have agreed



I will not need to read this part below as you have seen what I was saying, unless of course you come back to me a feel there is something significant

All in all you are a good poster

 

If we are not going to give Calzaghe full credit for the Eubank win due to him either being "past prime" even though he was only 31 or struggling to fight at 168, are we to do the same in regards to Froch's victory over Glen Johnson?

Johnson was 42, been fighting at 175 from 2001 - 2010 after multiple loses at 168, and he more than once hurt Froch's and bullied him throughout the fight only to lose a MD.

 

but we are giving him full credit for it. we are giving him full credit for beating a non-winning guy from another division called in at late notice, who once was a champ in this division a while ago.

that IS full credit.

The issue is YOUR side trying to OVERCREDIT the win, an insanely stupid thing that guys like blind bailey below do.

 

Oh no Odin. It only counts one way.
Lets forget that prime Johnson lost to Sheika to get the Calzaghe fight or that Johnson had not been a top SMW with several losses.
It only counts one way

 

A bit ago someone, I think it was Uppercut Artist was trying to claim Johnson as a top notch win for Hopkins in comparing the quality of Hopkins 160 reign with GGG's.

Obviously ignoring the fact that Johnson couldn't cut it at 160 or 168 and only succeeded in winning a title in an overhyped and overrated 175 division.

 

Alot of these fans make silly statements. There are many who found SMW tough but go to LHW, get well known and win a title but people forget that at SMW they were not a big factor.
I liked G Johnson he seemed a good humble fighter and did well at LHW but at SMW he didnt do well at all and wasnt a top SMW. There are many SMWs Calzaghe fought that were greater SMWs than Johnson. Forget just Sheika who beat prime Johnson and look at fighters like Starie who clearly handled C Woods who would fight evenly with Johnson. SMW was a overall tougher division but wasnt as well known.
You have to look at what the fighter did in that division rather than other divisions

 

Eubank was shot and completely useless in the Calzaghe fight . Anybody trying to claim that was a good win or claim Eubank was a top level SMW at the time should be ashamed of himself.

The fight took place in 1997. Eubank hadn't a good win at 168 since 1991 . He hadn't even fought at the weight in over TWO years and never fought there again.
Even when he was actively fighting there he wasn't able to beat N.Irish level nobody Ray Close in TWO efforts. Eubank was done in 1994 , never mind 1997.
To make matters worse he took the fight on a weeks notice coming down from Light Heavy.

That win is about as good as Carls win against Yousef Mack.

 

What's it that's on me??? Eubank was a top teir fighter for a long time, Bute never reached that level .

What happened to Eubank that diminished him that bad prior to fighting Calzaghe?? Eubank was not at his absolute peak but he was widely the better fighter than bute..

One reached elite status and was still very good and close enough to his best years during that time. Bute never reached elite level, never truly came close.

Bute was a B- fighter
Eubank was an A fighter.

How are people trying to debate this nonsense ? Seriously, you have no leg to stand on. We've seen both Eubank and butes entire careersystem.

While fighting, at every single point of their careers Eubank was a far better fighter compared to bute. Holy ****