Nikolai Valuev vs. Larry Holmes you know because size is more important than skill

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by reznick, Dec 31, 2016.


  1. escudo

    escudo Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,298
    4,629
    May 13, 2014
    I only brought up Cobb after that little dispute of Holmes' size, You're right Valuev fought nothing like Cobb. The hing is I don't think Valuev can deal with
    A. Holmes jab- No disrespect the big guy but Holmes jab is almost unanimously considered TBE at heavyweight, his angular footwork would keep him off the line of Valuev's and allow him to land his own. Often more then just the 1. Holmes loved to double and triple up on it. Holmes could get in and out with the best of them as well.

    B. Volume- Holmes has much better cardio then the big man and can throw far, far, more punches while staying fresh late into the fight. Pretty much all Holmes has to do is not get KO'ed (which only smaller, faster, ATG power punchers could pull off) he'd just be too active and too quick for the giant. All he had to do is stay more active, go to the body and not get KO'ed and it's his fight to lose.

    C. Versatility- Valuev is kind of a one trick pony. His lenth and power make it a very effective trick, but that is pretty much his entire strategy. Anybody with good lateral footwork should be able to take that 1-2 away from Valuev. After a few rounds Valuev started to get frustrated if he couldn't connect and would start leaning in. Holmes would take it to him when he starts leaning.

    We all know what Valuev's game plan would be, and Holmes could do more or less whatever he wanted. I think the really interesting thing to see would be Holmes try and stand up to the giant and stand his ground. Valuev had no game off the back foot.
     
  2. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

    60,225
    80,324
    Aug 21, 2012
    Good post. I will admit that I have seen little Valuev footage from his earlier days.

    IF he had a halfway decent jab, then he would have been problematic for anybody.
     
  3. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,343
    1,527
    Apr 26, 2015
    Valuev was as slow as a barn door. His jab would not find the Mark be prime Holmes. Many forget the excellent side to side movement and reflexes prime zHolmes exhibited in his prime. Older Holmes tended to fight more flatfooted..... that's not the fighter Valuev would be fighting if he is fighting Prime Holmes. It would be a one sided bout with Holmes speed allowing him to hit and not be hit round after round. It would be like watching Holmes work a large heavy bag. I don't see this going the distance in a 15 round bout. Ref stops a one sided bout in round 13 with Holmes unmarked but with Valuev a mess. A 13 round battering. Valuev does not have any way to stop any punch Holmes wants to land.
     
  4. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

    60,225
    80,324
    Aug 21, 2012
    That was more or less what I thought, but I gotsta see me this "Sugar" version of Valuev.

    Maybe he's the greatest and nobody even knows it? ;)
     
  5. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,343
    1,527
    Apr 26, 2015
    It does not matter how long a jab is if it's so slow a fighter like Holmes can see it coming a mile away. This bout would be similar to his bout with Cobb except Valuev was such a wide open slow target look for Holmes to really tee off especially with his right hand over the Valuev left.
     
  6. Azzer85

    Azzer85 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    28,283
    468
    Mar 13, 2010
    Lets break this down.

    A 50 year old Evander Holyfield beat Valuev.

    Holyfield is 6'2, 78" reach.
    Holmes is 6'3, 81" reach.
    Haye is 6'3, 78" reach.

    Someone please explain to me how Haye and a 50 year old Holyfield can beat Valuev, despite the size difference, but a prime Holmes cant?

    Also factor in how competitive an old Holmes was with a prime Evander.
     
  7. Jamal Perkins

    Jamal Perkins Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,700
    3,072
    Oct 19, 2012
    Lol there's little mystery to this one.......... a 212lb Haye "danced his way to a win" and that was following the template of a 47 year old Holyfield who made like an aged apollo creed to beat the Russian than get robbed.

    Im not going to dignify questioning what Larry 1974-1986 does so Ill say Larry 1988-1995 hell even the blubber Lar of the late 1990s decisions Valuev
     
    Silly billy likes this.
  8. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,626
    18,394
    Jun 25, 2014
    First, you can count the number of "fast" heavyweights all time on a couple hands. Valuev wasn't any slower than anyone else.

    Second, Holmes went flat-footed as early as the Evangelista fight in 1978. I remember back then when boxing writers were wondering as early as 1979 if Holmes' legs were gone because he didn't move anymore.

    The last time Holmes was a consistent side-to-side boxer was the Norton fight in 1978. And I don't think he was PAST HIS PRIME by 1979.

    Speaking of Norton ... who also wasn't very fast at all ... Norton literally drug his right foot behind him, no footwork AT ALL ... slow as hell on his feet ... and Norton took Holmes 15 rounds and lost by one point on one card ... and Norton's success WAS ALL DUE to the his jab.

    Norton had the same success with Ali BECAUSE OF THE JAB.

    Holmes fought a handful of guys who jabbed with him - Norton, Weaver, Williams, Witherspoon - ALL gave him a terrible night.

    None of them were considered fast, except for Williams. None of them.

    Valuev towered over Holmes by NINE INCHES. He was 100 pounds heavier. And Valuev's jab was as good as Weaver's or Spoon's or any of those guys' jabs.

    You don't need speed to jab with a jabber. Holmes and others like Ali who work primarily off the jab hated getting jabbed back. That's how Fury beat Wlad - who lived off his jab. Fury just jabbed with him. Wlad Klitschko always freaked any time someone came close to hitting him in the face. And once Fury hit him with some jabs right back, Wlad got hesitant and Fury won simply with a handful of jabs a round.

    Holmes was another guy who got lost when a jab came right back at him - going back to the 1970s with Norton and Weaver to the 80s with Spoon and Williams to even the 90s when club fighters like Maurice Harris jabbed back at him.

    The jab coming back in his face was something Holmes never learned to deal with.

    Valuev had that jab, and he had the size to take it the whole distance. I'd give Holmes the edge, because he was busier in most fights. But this is no walkover. I'd give a healthy Valuev a good shot at beating any version of Holmes.
     
  9. Azzer85

    Azzer85 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    28,283
    468
    Mar 13, 2010
    Do you believe an old Holyfield is better than a prime Holmes?

    What about David Haye?

    These guys beat Valuev and didn't seem to have too much of a problem.
     
  10. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,626
    18,394
    Jun 25, 2014
    Again, you look at a guys' final fight to judge how well someone would do against him? Valuev had chronic injuries to his back and his extremities. By the time of the Holyfield and Haye fights, Valuev could barely compete.

    That's like watching Ali versus Holmes and Berbick and deciding who you think Ali could beat based on THOSE TWO FIGHTS. And Valuev took on Haye in his last fight, and Haye needed a big final round to secure the win (I thought Haye was still too far behind to catch up).

    And despite his poor health, Valuev still outpointed Holyfield and, I thought at the time, outpointed Haye ... just with the jab.

    Valuev was faster and more aggressive and had a better jab when he was younger. Don't judge a fighter by his last two performances. It's not an accurate example. Especially one who retired because of the chronic injuries he carried into the ring with him in those fights.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  11. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,626
    18,394
    Jun 25, 2014
    Again, if you think Valuev was IN HIS PRIME when he fought those guys, you simply have no clue what you're talking about.

    Those were the 52nd and 53rd fights in a career that would end after the 53rd fight due to chronic bone and ligament problems.

    In Holmes' 52nd and 53rd fights, he met Tim "Doc" Anderson and Eddie Gonzales. Think those fights were fair representations of Holmes' abilities? And Holmes wasn't suffering from bone problems, he was just fat, rusty and out of shape.
     
  12. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,343
    1,527
    Apr 26, 2015
    If you think Valuev is going to outjab a slickster like Holmes you are as lost as they come. Never would happen.

    Holmes stood flatfooted against many opponents BECAUSE HE DID NOT NEED TO MOVE SIDE TO SIDE. His opposition dictated the type fight he needed to employ. Most had no answer to his jab even if he just stood flat footed.

    We are matching the giant vs the BEST Holmes. The BEST Holmes is one of boxing greatest hwt champions. He beats the huge mess of a fighter like a heavy bag. It's a no contest fight. Holmes too slick, too fast, too good a boxer, too great. It's a horrible abortion of a contender vs a top five ATG boxer.
     
    Azzer85 likes this.
  13. zadfrak

    zadfrak Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,498
    3,080
    Feb 17, 2008
    Exactly.

    It'd be a whole lot worse than the Larry Donald fight. I sure thought Valuev lost that one. He got turned all night and Holmes was much better than what a Larry Donald brought to the table. A slow plodder with zero head movement is the ideal match up for a Larry Holmes. This thing would go like the Holmes--Jones fight. As one sided as it gets & Valuev would be hard pressed to win a 1 minute segment, let alone a whole round.
     
  14. Azzer85

    Azzer85 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    28,283
    468
    Mar 13, 2010

    A quick search on google regarding this alleged chronic injury produces. Some interesting results.

    There Is nothing, nothing whatsoever which mentions he had any problems.

    Not a single report. Now I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying I want proof it did.

    But what's even more interesting is, comments on other boxing forums made by a certain user who pretty much wrote word for word, exactly what you wrote.


    Polecateddy on a thread Valuev vs Marciano.
    "Valuev was struggling badly with chronic joint issues. I don't think its fair to use Valuev's last few fights as any benchmark of his ability.

    Same user on a thread Valuev vs Shavers

    "Im not an expert on Valuev, but there was a period of time where he was improving and seemingly punching harder and more correctly. However during his title reign chronic joint injuries started to kick in. The truth is he gets judged for a lot of his latter fights, such as against Holyfield and Haye, when the guy was basically walking wounded. Why else do you think there has not been even a sniff of a comeback, despite lucrative offers in the past from the Vitali camp. At his peak he could handle Shavers, end of story."

    Same guy again this time on Fury vs Valuev
    "I could see Valuev, although not a big puncher, scoring a good stoppage win in the 2nd half too. Fury would wear down and get ragged. Valuev was a faded force by the time he fought Holyfield. Chronic joint degeneration ...which is why there was never a comeback since Haye."

    Interesting.

    Seems like only one person in the whole world knows about Valuevs alleged chronic injury.
     
  15. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,626
    18,394
    Jun 25, 2014
    If you think Holmes was a "slickster" ... you're lost.

    I think Holmes is one of the best ever, too. But styles make fights. And Holmes hated jabbing with a jabber. That's why, as you pointed out, HE RARELY IF EVER FOUGHT THEM. He could do what he wanted with his jab because he primarily faced smaller guys who stalked him.

    When he faced guys who jabbed with him ANY TIME IN HIS CAREER - like Norton, Weaver, Williams, Spoon, Harris (NONE OF WHOM I'd rate among the best heavyweights ever) - Holmes had a TERRIBLE night.

    And it was all due to their jabs.

    How would Holmes do against a guy who had a half a foot reach and nine inches in height and 100 pounds in weight WHO JABBED WITH HIM all night?

    If you think he had a hard time with Norton, Weaver, Williams, Spoon and Harris ... it would've have been any easier against Valuev. Because he wasn't turning the tide by flooring Valuev with an uppercut on the inside like he did against Weaver.

    The only time Valuev came close to going down was in the final round of his final fight when he was a sick man.