Nikolai Valuev vs. Larry Holmes you know because size is more important than skill

Jesus. A quick Google search? Watch his fights. Watch the profiles before his fights. Watch the lead up to his fights that used to appear on Sentanta. They were all well documented.

If you can't find something in a quick "Google search" it never happened now?

Christ.

 

Read what I wrote again.

I said I'm not saying it didn't happen, I want proof it did.

And I find it strange only one guy keeps bringing it up.

 

If you want proof, then watch the broadcasts. Like I said, it was covered pretty extensively in his career. Or start by reading about his disease - acromegaly.

I'm not doing your homework for you.

 

The "sugar" version? How about just not judging a guy based on the final two fights of his career when he retired due to chronic injuries.

In Holmes' 52nd and 53rd fights, he was fighting Tim "Doc" Anderson and Eddie Gonzales (who went the distance with him). Would you tell people to watch those fights as an example of how well Larry would do against other fighters in history.

Would you tell people to watch Muhammad Ali's 52nd and 53rd fights - against Coopman and Young - to get an idea of how well Ali would do against fighters all-time?

So why use an arthritic aging Russian champ's final fights - when he was just looking for a couple decent paydays before he retired - as the basis for gauging how he'd do against the BEST versions of other champs?

Who are all the heavyweights you only judge based on their final performances?

So don't be a "d*ck" and do that to Valuev. Treat him like you would other champs whose final performances are often excused or completely ignored when judging his ability.

 

Relax pal.

1) I can't help making troll-flavoured posts. It's in my blood. Don't get worked up too much
2) Not everybody has watched a lot of Valuev, and that includes me. I will educate myself.

 

You have no clue. Valuev is as slow as a barn door. He is not outjabbing Holmes. Great jabbers are effective because they are quick and have great timing not because they are big, not because they have reach.

Holmes was a very slick boxer. As just one example his ability to nullify the Cooney hook was excellent. His ability to outjab Norton and land right counters was also excellent.

Prime Holmes could move and box or stand flat footed. Again we are talking the best Holmes not on an off night.

Holmes would use the very slow Valuev as a punching bag. Nothing more. It's what one would expect when an ATG boxer on his best night fights a large, slow moving, contender.

 

Also.....Valuev was never champion.

 

One word nobody ever used to describe Norton, Weaver and Witherspoon is "quick."

All three managed to give Holmes hell in 1978, 1979 and 1983, because they all jabbed with him. All three had slow feet or bad balance or both. All three weren't known for their fast hands. Weaver was little more than a journeyman at the time, having been beaten by everyone and (in some cases) their brothers, too.

Valuev only has two decision losses, and both were razor thin. He won 50 fights (and nearly the two he lost) because of his jab. And most of the names who fought him said his jab was surprisingly fast and hard when they got in the ring with him.

He didn't win because of a great right hand or tremendous left hook, he won nearly every pro fight he had because of his jab.

Again, Valuev wasn't any slower than guys like Norton or Spoon or Weaver. You could even make the argument Valuev moved around the ring better than they did when Valuev was younger. He certainly covered more ground than they did. He didn't fight like he had a weight tied around his right ankle like Norton did.

You couldn't be more wrong about this guy.

 

And Larry never learned to slip the jab coming back at him. So he actively avoided guys like Thomas and Dokes and Page who jabbed a lot. If he'd known Weaver and Spoon had good jabs, he'd have avoided them, too.

They were bad style matchups for him. His opponent's jab was the chink in Larry armor.

 

Beyond belief how off base you are. Norton was KNOWN to have a beautiful quick jab. He was eons quicker than the human barn door. What Norton was able to do vs Holmes in no way intimates what a slow and ponderous contender would be able to accomplish. Just plain poppycock. Holmes could not miss.

 

Norton wasn't considered fast by anyone. Eddie Futch instructed him, before Norton's first fight with Ali, to jab when Ali jabbed. Because Futch knew Ali hated getting hit with a jab.

Just jab when Ali jabbed ... that was the strategy Futch came up with. And it worked like gem against Ali and against Holmes, too. Holmes had the same difficulty with jabbers.

It had nothing to do with speed. Norton didn't beat Ali or Holmes to the punch with the jab. He just jabbed with them. Weaver and Spoon didn't have a faster jab than Holmes, either. They just jabbed when he jabbed.

It's a very effective strategy against a guy who relies heavily on his jab to set up everything. It's how Fury beat Klitschko and Fury isn't exactly a speed demon, either.

If you hit a jabber in the face with a jab while he's jabbing, he has to reset. He can't follow up with the punches he'd normally follow up with. It throws them off their game.

IMO, Valuev would've been very effective against Holmes using it, because Valuev used it constantly. And Holmes was always bothered by people who did that.

 

Complete BS.

Larry Donald, a bum as compared to Holmes but a boxer like Larry, outjabbed Valuev. What do you think the best Larry Holmes would do?

 

It shouldn't have taken this thread five pages for this to be dubbed a mismatch. If Ruslan Chagaev along with unearthed versions of John Ruiz, Evander Holyfield, and Larry Donald can fight on even or better terms with Valuev then Larry Holmes could outbox him with one hand while sipping a beer with the other.. Nikolay would probably get KTFO by Gerry Cooney.

 

I think Larry Holmes would jab Valuev and Valuev would jab Holmes and I favor Holmes to win by a small margin via decision.

I've said I favor Holmes to win.

I am just pointing out that opponents who jabbed with Holmes gave him fits. And Valuev would do the same. Because that's what Valuev did.

Nobody dominated or stopped Valuev. Nobody dropped him. Nobody shut him out on the cards. Even when his career was winding down.

Holmes wouldn't either.

On the contrary. If Norton and Weaver in the 1970s, and Witherspoon and Carl Williams in the 1980s and guys like Maurice Harris in the 1990s could give Holmes hell ... and nearly all of them (with the exception of Weaver) have a good argument for deserving the decision ... SIMPLY BY JABBING WITH HOLMES ALL NIGHT ... Valuev who was much bigger than anyone Holmes faced could give him hell, too.

 

And if Norton and Weaver and Spoon ... none of whom was a better title holder than Valuev ... could give Holmes hell, so could Valuev.

You didn't have to be a Hall of Famer, or unbeaten, to give Holmes problems.

You just had to have the right style. Not speed. Not power. Not a great chin. Just the right style.

Guys who sucked or got blown out or quit when the going got tough gave Holmes problems, too.