Joe Frazier's career, without Ali

He would be in the same boat as Floyd Patterson, really.

 

I thought about this same theory the other night. Frazier was a great, but was exceptional to fighters who's style matched him well. Without the Ali fights, his left hook doesn't get as much credit for sure. He only lost to ATG's but I believe he Frazier would have fought more that we would have seen more L's on his resume.

 

Joe would have remained undefeated as long as he could put off a bout with Foreman. He would have cleared the field up until that point in time. It also would have opened up the possibility of bouts with men like Lyle and Shavers. Although at the time the idea was Norton and Frazier were friends and would not fight without Ali the bout may have come off. I could see Joe at his best stopping everyone aside from George.

 

Fraziers hook would always been given credit Ali or not. That was HIS punch. Frazier=left hook.

 

Well if he'd never fought the FOC he would certainly have been in better physical shape in 1971 to continue his career.
Which possibly means he may have given a better account of himself against Foreman.
There again George probably just had his number no matter what.

 

He may or may not have faced Foreman the same date and time. My guess is without Ali around his bout with George may have occurred a bit later. Perhaps late 73 or early 74. In any case it's not a good night for Joe.

 

His victory and trilogy with Muhammad was the cornerstone of his career. Without it he'd no doubt drop a few places in history. His wins over Quarry, Ellis, Mathis, Foster, Chuvalo, and Bonavena were a good supporting cast but not enough to stand alone on.

 

Joe would have been a helluva a lot poorer that`s for sure.

 

It depends on how well Joe would do against Sonny Liston. Without Ali, you figure Liston would've still been the champ in 1967.

If Frazier and Liston squared off, and Frazier won, I think Joe's reign would've been viewed entirely different.

When Joe first won against Mathis, he was only viewed as the heavyweight champion in five or six U.S. states, which is embarrassing. Nobody else in the world recognized him initially, although the British Boxing Board of Control did by the end of the 1960s.

If Frazier had won the outright world title from Sonny Liston in 1967, let's say, there likely would've been a rematch. And by then Quarry would've arrived on the scene. (Ellis may not have been a factor, without the tournament. He certainly bolted to the top thanks to it.) Frazier would've maybe faced Thad Spencer, Henry Cooper and Mac Foster (who was on the rise in the late 60s) and had a return fight with Bonavena. Maybe Joe would've fought Ron Lyle around 1972.

Maybe Joe is the champ from 1967 to 1973, and maybe he fights Foreman sooner than he did (in 1970 or 1971 after Foreman fought Chuvalo) and maybe Joe does better against George (without the beating from Ali in 1971 to recover from).

Had Frazier been able to dethrone Liston (in what would probably have been a pretty fun fight) ... he'd have likely been a pretty huge star in the 1960s. He may have gotten past a still green George Foreman in 1970/71, and he may have been the champ for a REALLY long time.

 

Liston was basically black balled from championship contention in the late 60's. .

 

Fraziers not beating Foreman 71 or 73. Is not two brutal kos in two fights, 8 knockdowns, Fraziers teeth being knocked out enough information to determine Fraziers not beating Foreman? In what bizarro world does Joe turn all this on its head and win?