I agree. He had Calzaghe and Kessler ahead of him at the weight though, with Ward on the rise. Also Froch.
Amir Khan - Go back to what made him great ambush flurries almost had him beat a real ATG in Mario Kindelan possibly one of the best amatuer boxers of all time Marcos Maidana - I mean this dude was out jabbing Floyd & looking slick at times in their first fight BEYOND the brutality that he showed in the early rounds. I'd like to say Matthysse if he hadn't got robbed against Judah & Alexander...he was super solid & should have been at the forefront of 140 in 2010/11. I'm just listing boxers I like & trying to make a case for them lmao
He used his jab very well, gauged distances excellently (skill), he had awesome footwork (skill), he had above average ring generalship (skill, IQ) and upper body positioning, ect. He was more than just a speedster with reflexes.
I don't see it. His reflexes give him the appearance of some top notch athlete, but top notch he was not. You cannot be top notch and lose to all the people he lost too. Good jab, excellent perception, awesome footwork, above average ring G, and above average body positioning (ducking below the waist)? In fact, in his best win, he needed the help of Don King, the Ref, and possibly the judges to beat the very rugged and unorthodox Ricardo Mayorga.
I didnt say he was a top notch fighter, Isal. I said he had 'pretty nice skills'.... because I personally cant think of any non great fighter that has 'great' skills, but he popped into my head as someone who had better skills than the level he achived in boxing. Like I said, - Good use of jab (that is a skill) - Good footwork (that is a skill) - Good Ring G (that is a skill) - Good upper body movement (that is a skill) None of those attributes in him were 'average', and all are skill based. His talent based attributes, that have less to do with skill and more to do with talent, like you are saying, is his ability to slip punches by an inch when need be (reflexes) and his ability to land quick scoring punches (speed) But again, using your jab appropriately has nothing to do with speed.... thats a skill. Your speed helps you land your jab, doesnt help you know how to use it properly. Speed doesnt give you good footwork, reflexes and speed dont give you good ring generalship, ect. Those are skills that you have to hone. He also had good timing, speed does not give you timing. Timing is a skill that you perfect.... Ya, his best 'win', if you want to call it a win, was against Mayorga. A prime welterweight Mayorga. The same Mayorga that KTFO of a prime Vernon Forrest and then clowned him in the rematch. The same Mayorga that would give most non great welterweights problems, at welterweight. The point? Spinks was a solid fighter with skills that were better than the level of fighter he is. If you can watch the first couple rounds of Jermain Taylor vs Cory Spinks, and think you just see a speedster with reflexes, without seeing good skill there, I dont know what to tell you.
This thread is about GREAT skills on non-great fighters. Non-greats with a great skill examples: David Tua had a great lefthook. Winky Wright had great peek-a-boo defense Antonio Margarito had great pressure and chin. Edwin Valero had great one punch KO power.
Tua having a monster left hook isn't a great "skill" as the op seems to be defining it. Winky wright was a legit great fighter
Do you know what skills are Isal? Because chin isnt a skill, and having one punch KO power is as much due to the talent that you are born with than it is skills. And that you take issue with me listing Spinks for his footwork and ring generalship, but are ok with David Tua, Margarito, and Valero making the list lol... I just.... I dont know man lol, I really dont mean this rudely but you just kinda trip me out a lot lol. I mean that in a good humor sort of way, not as a dig, I am not trying to be rude here. It just cracks me up is all. You took enough issue with me putting spinks, that you quoted me to say he shouldnt belong. Meanwhile are ok with Margarito and Tua being there lol. It is what it is man lol.... maybe we can just avoid eachothers posts from now on? You dont quote me I wont quote you. I say that only because its a waste of both our times when we respond to eachother
Great thread. My picks: Herol Graham: Great hand speed, defense, reflexes and footwork, he came short on his biggest fights, but he fought in the toughest era for 154-160-168. Sumbu Kalambay (if you don't consider him great): Outboxed a prime Mike McCallum!, so smooth with his footwork and defense, just beautiful. Jermain Taylor: Outboxed Winky Wright and B-Hop, close fights, but he was a really talented dude, but took too much punishment, still remains as one of the two holders of the 4 major titles in history. Cory Spinks: Used his skills to overcome the lack of power and natural ability, worked well for a guy so disrespected in boxing. Paulie Maliggnagi: See Cory Spinks. Kendall Holt: So inconsistent, but he was a really nice textbook boxer with every punch mastered. Jorge Linares: Almost the same as Holt, but overcame better his setbacks in the ring and i think he's even better, he is a beauty to watch and one of my favorites to study and imitate in the gym. Amir Khan: He is almost impossible to outbox (unless you are someone like Mario Kindelan). Lucas Matthyse: His counterpunching game is on point as well as his feints, cutting the ring ability and skills, sadly, seems to lack the "thing" to reach the world title. Tevin Farmer: All the future ahead of him, but his skill is unbelievable for a guy that started with such a bad record. Buddy McGirt (if you don't consider him great): Afraid of no one and showed that he could held his own against the very best. Mark Breland: What a savage in the amateurs, something was missing in the pros, but not the skill, he was almost impossible to outbox. Diosbelys Hurtado: Gave Whitaker and Tszyu all they could handle, his speed, footwork and defense, all were on point, but being on the first row of Cuban pros didn't let his career to have a good development. Joel Casamayor: Like Hurtado but more successful. Marlon Starling: A master on the high guard. Calvin Grove: Don't let that record fools you, he could held his own against the best, very tough to outbox. Emanuel Augustus: Not an easy guy to beat neither an easy guy to outbox, deceiving record. Ayub Kalule: So underrated. Willie Pastrano (if you don't consider him great): What a footwork. Federico Thompson: Underrated guy who fought the very best, great jab and footwork, good defense too. John John Molina: Underrated and gave the very best a tough time. Hector Lopez: Olympic medalist at 17, drugs ruined a possibly great career, gave Tszyu all he could handle. Gabriel Ruelas: Watch him against Leija and you will understand. Howard Davis: A prime (in the olympics) Howard Davis, was one of the best pure boxers you would ever see. Joan Guzman: So many mistakes outside the ring by him and his team prevented Guzman from becoming an hof/atg, one of the great boxing talents. Omar Narvaez: Underrated, beautiful defense and footwork. Freddie Pendelton: Deceiving record, would fight the best and always held his own. Meldrick Taylor: Too brave for his own good, a beautiful outside boxer when he wanted. Ismail Sillakh: A really good boxer to watch. Francisco Bojado: WASTED TALENT. Derrick Gainer: Nice footwork. Freddie Norwood: Skilled and tall operator. Kennedy McKinney: Every punch on the book, great jab and textbook style. Junior Jones: Athletic and talented, but also had a really nice jab and good skills. Rakhim Chakiev: A great talent for the sport and really good technique, but his iq is too low.
Good Question and subjective ....... My thoughts ( opinion ) Calzahge - some will say he is a great others not Zab Judah - great skills but his brain let him down Andre Ward - don't think he will be considered a great due to his negating style and inactivity
Good pick..... Had he had big power and non-brittle hands he would have been one of the dominant ones.