Early 80's discussion

There is page after page after page (dig the pun?) of explanations in older threads, some recent. chok refused to take anything at all on board even when factual and explained on the simplest of levels. Saad and myself were there when it happened and Saad put forward a foolproof and excellent summation, again and again and again and again x 12. He eventually wore done as did many, except one or two.

The simple fact is Holmes said he was going to take the easy fights on the way down, he'd earnt it etc etc. He then proceeded to back this up tp perfection taking on a bunch of fledglings, lower quality fighters and a light heavyweight. Rules are rules and Larry was happy to follow them for the WBC for many years but when he started to struggle it suddenly didn't suit him and he did his own thing.

If or how much someone holds not fighting the top fighters and doing the true champ thing against him for his last 3 years is entirely up to them. Many ignore it, some like myself drop him just a touch, others judge it quite significantly.

I'd say he still makes my top 5 ever. Tho his era was one of the poorer ones (particularly avoiding the better challengers in the last three years) he showed great consistency via the ability to win and showed some great in ring qualities.

 

At the end of the day the WBC was stupid giving ken Norton a belt without him winning a vacant title fight.

At the end of the day the WBA were stupid to strip Spinks for giving Ali a rematch.

At the end of the day the WBA were insane to instal John Tate over Larry Holmes to fight for their vacant title. Coetzee I can understand because he demolished Spinks.

The WBA were insane to threaten to strip Weaver if he fought #1 Cooney over #4 Tilis.

The WBC were stupid to not rank South Africans

The WBC were far to hasty to make Snipes a challenger in light of his disputed win over Coetzee.

The WBC were far too hasty to make Page more of a contender than he was just because Larry wanted to flight the WBA champ because he was a South African.

The WBA were stupid to install Coetzee as a #1 contender when ever he won a fight. Especially once it came apparent it was for the gates he drew in South Africa.

The WBA were stupid to allow Page to fight For their title after a loss.

And to top it all Larry was a bit crazy to speak out and upset people.

 

Post Cooney. Don't be fooled by strawmen - look at where opponents like Witherspoon and Smith were at the time he chose them.

Great, great fighter, but he could have probably fought himself into the bonafide 2 or 3 spot even without great opposition. A win over Page, a win over Thomas, and a rematch win over Witherspoon or Coetzee with an easier defense between each post Witherspoon and he's got to be pushing Louis for my 2 spot.

 

But in order to stay busy who was above them that he was allowed to fight? The WBA champions were continually defending against South Africans or losing their title. Behind them were usually guys Larry already beat. Berbick, Snipes, Weaver it meant he wasn't left with really that much. The Ring top ten was a mishmash of WBA and WBC ranked guys all ex belt holders, failed challengers and young upstarts. If Larry did not fight the upstarts he would have been as inactive as the WBA guys were.

The WBA guys were losing to upstarts!

 

Spare me the excuses.

 

I think there was a case for Larry to fight Thomas after he beat Witherspoon. I really do. But think back, there was that HBO tournament to clean things up and Larry signed and Thomas signed and Tubbs signed they were all allowed one more fight then face unifications with each other but they all went off and lost their next figh! Thomas lost to Berbick, Homes lost to Spinks, Tubbs lost to Witherspoon!

Then presumably Witherspoon was allowed one defence, he took Bruno but before he could face a rival champion what did the WBA do? They insisted he rematch Tubbs! Berbick took his defence against Tyson and lost. Spinks beat Larry again then opted out of the whole thing.

Which all set things up suspiciously well for Tyson to unify. He got Bonecrusher in the first ever unification. Bonecrusher wound up with that belt when he replaced Tubbs short notice. Tyson won that, I think Douglas and Tucker fought for Spinks vacant belt on the same card. Tucker never got his defence though, he went straight into a Tyson unification, I guess the HBO couldn't chance another round of abc guys losing defences all the time, then as we all know Tyson won that collecting all three belts.

 

to be fair its not a world title bout, its an invented 2nd slot. no regualr is ever a world title, unless theres an earth 2 they have been transdimensionally visiting.

 

The WBA prides itself as a world sanctioning body. A few months ago they were talking about having the obscure Lucas Browne and an ancient unranked Briggs fighting for their belt. Billing this as a world title match is a travesty.

 

There was a two and a half year window between the time Holmes beat Witherspoon and the time he lost to spinks where he fought Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier, James Smith, David Bey and Carl Williams. During that time men like Page, Thomas, Coetzee, and Witherspoon were all available and sufficiently ranked. Michael Dokes was managed by the same people and basically fell off the face of the earth for a few years after losing to Coetzee in late 1983, so that one I'll give him a pass for. Tony Tubbs was basically a nobody until almost the time that Holmes lost his title so I suppose we can omit him as well. But the others were certainly well ahead of the pack that Larry was facing.

 

To put it in perspective, Holmes reign post Co0ney reads a bit like Ali's post Norton III. The difference is that Ali avoided rematches with guys he'd already beat (albeit controversially in some cases) while Holmes also avoided guys he hadn't faced before.

No, Page was no Wills and Dokes was no Greb, but they and Thomas and Coetzee were better and/or more deserving than most of the guys Holmes took on post Co0ney. That affects his ATG ranking to at least some degree. I can't see how that's debatable.

 

Agreed. And to be fair I don't think Holmes had to fight EVERY guy with a heart beat. But to face at least one or two of them would have sufficed. Going two and half years without facing a legit top 5 opponent while maintaining linear status was pretty scandalous if one is honest.