Early 80's discussion

One can nitpick all these guys individually and claim that the time and people wasn't right and then he lost to that guy or that guy, for infinity. But when four of the main contenders for a some years plus a rematch with a tough challenger are missing from a champion's record, that makes somewhat of a difference. You can't get past that.

Ali's is quite correctly critizised for not rematching at least one or two of Norton, Young and Foreman. By the same standard Holmes should be critizised for this.

 

I get how Coetzee was more deserving and Thomas was more deserving and Page was more deserving but check out the time line.

Larry did sign to fight Coetzee but after a whole year it just fell through over and over. Posters were printed but the promotion kept falling through. Surely we can complain it did not happen but we can't say Larry was not willing.

Page was more deserving for how long? Was it after he lost to Berbick, before he lost to Witherspoon or before he lost to David Bey? I just don't see how beating Renaldo snipes (which was all Witherspoon had done to get a shot at Larry) right after a Larry beat him really forces that much of a case during the shortest of windows. Was Larry that willing to fight him when Marvis Frazier could make more money? Probably not.

Thomas was an upstart when he beat Witherspoon, all he had going for him was a draw with Coetzee. Hardly outstanding contender stuff. Once he beat Spoon sure Thomas was then a worthy contender for Larry but he got injured sprring Ken Lacuster. Larry and Thomas both did sign to take part in the HBO elimination tournament so it's not quite the duck people say it was, of course Larry was also flirting with retirement and saying arrogant things about not needing the rival champions but he still signed to take part in that tournament.

 

The bigger irony of sorts was all those guys were signed to DKP. So zero effort and revenue sharing with a rival promoter to make the bouts happen. And I guess I missed all those Scott Frank sure does deserve a title shot opportunity backing from the powers that be. What it was is exactly the same thing we are suffering now with Wilder and that run of his successful title defenses. They can be justified if you choose to dig deep enough.

 

From the outset yes it is. Rodriguez was low risk, Witherspoon was legit for those days if you consider Thomas was also legit for Witherspoon to later defend against. Tubs beat who to get a shot at a belt? Dokes beat who to get a shot at a belt?

Bey was actually highly ranked when he fought Larry.

Frazier was lower risk than Page but so far as profile went Page was not high magnitude, he was not eclipsing anyone. He lost to Berbick and beat Snipes. Big deal. Frank was low risk obviously but if Thomas got a shot at the WBC title out of a draw with Coetzee why couldn't Frank get a shot out of a draw with Snipes?

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to have seen Larry fight those guys one after the other. I understand why it did not happen. Half the division had a belt, the other half was either an ex champ or a prospect and everyone had too many options. If Larry beat you then you could always challenge and beat the other guy. That's how Weaver became champ. That's how Witherspoon became champ and that's how Berbick became champ and that's even how smith became champ. All those guys were contenders sharing a belt they could not keep.

Who knows if he other belt holders had of been half as active as Larry was one of them would have found time to lose to Marvin Frazier and Scott Frank.

 

Holmes had a title stripped for not fighting a #1 mandatory. It doesn't get anymore black and white than that.

 

Was he stripped or did he just walk away so that he could pursue WBA champ Coetzee? I think after he fought Marvis they wanted him to fight Page but once Larry was awarded IBF recognition and they promised to allow Larry to fight a South African he was happy to dump the WBC and the short Money Page would have drew. The Coetzee fight was the better fight. As rival champion to Larry he was higher than Page with Ring Magazine

 

So this all hinges on Page defeating Snipes? Renaldo was 1-2-1 in his last four fights going into the fight with Page.

SMH.

 

Exactly.

 

Taken from Boxrec.

"After defeating Frazier, the WBC stated that Holmes had to fight #1 contender Greg Page next or he would be stripped of the title. But Holmes wanted more than the $2.55 million he was being offered by promoter Don King to fight Page."

So yeah Holmes turned down fighting Page and used the premise that 2.5 Million wasn't adequate.. Sounds business savvy enough, EXCEPT... The next time he appeared in the ring would be a full year later after the Marvis fight against James Smith when his purse was a mere 1 million. Following that fight he'd face David Bey for 1.5 and then Carl Williams for 2.3. It wasn't until he fought Spinks in late 1985 that he FINALLY received a purse ( 3 million ) that eclipsed the one he was offered two years earlier against Page. And we all know what happened there. So were Holmes so called business decisions to by pass legitimate contenders REALLY about $$$ or were they about preserving his status while avoiding a potential beating? I'm not so sure.

 

It wasn't just about beating Snipes. Page had accrued a record of 23-1-0-18 and was the WBC's #1 contender. In his travels he had beaten Renaldo Snipes, Quick Tillis, Scott Ledoux, Larry Frazier, George Chaplin, Marty Monroe, Alfredo Evangelista, and an aged Jimmy Young who granted was past his prime but coming off a respectable streak. All this was on top of Page also having a highly decorated amateur career. His only loss to this point was a hard fought decision at the hands of Berbick. Page certainly had a lot more justification for fighting for the title than anyone else Holmes fought in 1983-84.

 

yes and Right after the Frazier fight Larry signed to fight WBA champion Gertie Coetzee for 15million. The money fell through and the location kept changing. There was a contract dispute, a promotional dispute, Larry lowered his price a few times and each time the fight collapsed. Finally Coetzee was ordered to meet his mandatory challenger or get stripped by the WBA so he ran out of time. and then because all this did take a full year, Larry took the Smith fight.

I think Larry was offered more to fight Frazier. Then a Coetzee fight was on the table. That eclipses Page surely?
If the Coetzee fight had of came off all would be forgiven. Around the time of the Bey fight (funny that Bey is worth less after beating Page) Larry had signed to join the HBO elimination series to unify the title once and for all. I think the reason Bey, Williams and Spinks fights were put together in quick succession was there was a time limit before he could take part in a unification and as an old champion he probably wanted to cash in somewhat. But this still does not Change the fact that he had committed to unifications by signing to join that HBO tournament.

 

Berbick schooled him, he nearly knocked Page out in the second round. This was on the Holmes v C00ney undercard. He had to rebuild all over again. All he did For a "rebuild" was beat Tillis right after Pinklon Thomas had already knocked Tillis out of the ratings, decision old trial horse Larry Frazier and decision 1-2-1 Snipes. It was hardly top stuff.

 

The Coetzee fight never came off and even if it had that wouldn't have erased the fact that Holmes was ducking more qualified challengers for lesser ones and doing so over a prolonged period of time. Your point about Holmes being offered more for Frazier than Page is moot because it wasn't until AFTER Holmes beat Marvis that the WBC ordered him to fight Page at which point he announced he wouldn't do it so was stripped. Hence he could have fought both while preserving his status. Page losing to Bey in 1984 and then Holmes fighting Bey doesn't change the fact that Greg was the best challenger in the world a year prior in 1983. Around this time Larry was being mightily criticized for the opponent selections he was making. Some even joked and suggested that maybe he should fight Hagler after meeting Spinks. Its also arguable that he needed help from the officials in the Witherspoon and Williams fights - both of which featured 15-16 fight prospects with little more than a single quality win between them. For the record, I rate Holmes very highly despite all this.. From 1978 - 1982 he had a pretty solid reign with good scalps over Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Berbick, Cooney, and L. Spinks. But after he beat Cooney he started playing it safe, riding politics and covering his arse. On one hand I don't blame him for doing whatever he felt was best for his health, family, etc, as any smart man should do. But when rating him against other greats of his craft we can't make excuses for his course of action and mistake smart business for high athletic achievement.

 

Yes you are correct this was how all of this was presented at the time. The world was sick and tired of the confusion of having two champions right after the easier to follow 1970s.

I was just as frustrated to. Larry certainly did not help himself being so outspoken, but as you say from 1978-1982 he did everything right.

Things got more confusing from 1983 and this was where Larry started to behave more blunt about the situation, he had decided the media had not wanted him to beat C00ney, he had paid his dues and was beginning to tire of King, the sanctioning bodies and a situation where fans would blame him for the sanctioning bodies and the promoter being quite happy to keep the title split.

But looking at it 1983 was the year Dokes and Weaver were tied to a rematch and then commited to a mandatory defence against Coetzee who bizarrely maintained a high WBA ranking after losing shots at weaver and Tate. Larry couldn't get a unification if he wanted to that year. He still fights three times beating the WBC #3 and #9 contenders and earning 3.1 million against Marvis Frazier.

1984 a year is wasted after a signed for unification with the WBA champion falls through several times.

1985 he signs to enter the HBO elimination tournament but loses to spinks anyway.

 

but they are selling a lie since theres only onewortld title they can offer,since theres ony one actual world.

its basically a title for douches, is regular.