Feelings on Marciano vs Louis??

Why do folk try to overcomplicate things on here? It's clear as day Louis wasn't the fighter he once was, you would have to make him favourite had they both met in their primes. I believe Marciano would have been a very dangerous fight for any version of Louis, I wouldn't be confident enough to put my money on it that's for sure.

 

Sorry I got here late today, Mc, I dont play by your rules sorry, I see you're getting hugs, which is good. I dont need articles to tell me what to think and what I can see with my own eyes, like apparently you and your huggers do. There is enough visual evidence, dont you think?

Q. Would you agree Louis's most powerful punch was his right cross?
One of them he was a two handed puncher, maybe you missed Louis's early and late fights, he scored ko's with both hands

Q. How many did he throw against Marciano?
Maybe you are like your huggers that work off articles, so again, you are trying to control the answers it dont work that way. Marciano tactic's played a big part in this fight, Marciano kept the fight in close. Marciano's guard also worked against
right crosses, maybe you dont know fight tactic's and strategies. Basic boxing 101, jeez and you dont know that, ya cant throw a right cross in close, and since we all agree Louis' reflexes were not the same, you need reflexes to get your punches off. Louis could see the openings but couldnt do anything about them. I dont have to read articles to know that, basic stuff.

For you to use JJW's ko in September 1948 by Louis as an example of him still retaining his power in his fight with Marciano in October 1951, nearly three and a half years later, a period that incorporated a 2 years retirement is ludicrous.
What's ludicrous is you not knowing and having basic boxing knowledge, Louis' reflexes and eyes played a big part in the Marciano fight. Maybe you also forgot that he had 8 winning fights over useful journeymen, heading into the Marciano fight.
It was one of your huggers who posted that piece by Rice, he stated 3-4 yrs, so the Walcott fight was within that time period. Also you must know that JJW, last stoppage loss before Louis turned the trick was way back in 1940.

Agramonte had been stopped 6 times when he faced Louis ,who succeeded in dropping him but could not stop him in two attempts.Walcott had Agramonte on the floor 4 times in their fight before it was called off.

Jeez, and the funny thing is you think you're making points lol. Simple, Walcott aged better then Louis did, it does happen. JJW stopped him and Louis didnt, so?!

Flooring him does not indicate Louis still had his power.This was the first knockdown Louis had scored on his comeback.
Not being able to stop a man whom 6 others had indicates the opposite!

To you it does, again it doesnt mean that much, all it means is that Louis got some needed rds and put the work in, fighting his way back. But since you bring it up let's see in 22 fights, after he was stopped by Pat Cominski and pre-Louis the only ko loss was to JJW, yep you made a great point lol. The guy was a durable journeyman, who was good for rds. You should know that, this is not rocket science. Comiskey BTW was a pretty good puncher himself.

Like wise stopping Savold,[ who was nearly as old as Louis and just as ringworn,] who had been stopped 7 times ,and who would be stopped in his next and final fight, does not indicate Louis still retained his right hand power.
How many times did a young in his prime Marciano drop Savold, this indicates you are drowning and reaching for straws. I guess using your criteria, Rocky also lost his ko power lol. Savold fyi in 54 pre- Louis fights was ONLY stopped one time, a real chinny guy. Maybe you should look at Savold's career, the fight before he fought Louis was vs a guy you might know Bruce Woodco-ck, oops!

Beshore was stopped on cuts to which he was prone.
So, what does this indicate to you, oh yes this proves Louis had no pop, omg too, too funny.

Journeyman Walker had been stopped 4 times previously ,he would have a further11 fights losing them all. 5 by stoppage

Walker was a gimme why even include him in your excellent article review?

Louis' last fight previous to fighting Marciano was against Jimmy Bivins, 2 months previously,the AP report said this.
"Always chasing his retreating foe
And this is your smoking gun, I guess he was running cos Louis was a punchless wonder.

Louis never was able to explode the bomb he carried in the days when he held the heavyweight title".
Another brilliant observation from a scribe who was there,lol 'er maybe somebody should have pulled him aside and told him the obvious, this was an old Louis not the Louis of old. In 75 pre-Louis he was stopped how many times, and by who? 2 ATG's and Lem Franklin who was a pretty good puncher himself, Bivins in those 75 previous fight fought and beat some pretty good fighters and punchers. Why just go on a statistical record when just a look at his record and who he fought would tell you a better story. I cant believe a guy who is as "knowledgeable" as you would make a noise about this fight.
Bivins wasnt a bad fighter

" I could tell early in the fight that Joe wasn't going to be able to handle Rocky. He wasn't punching with that old zing"Manny Seamon who trained Louis for the fight.

Oh, was that big news to a fine old trainer, that it had just dawned on him during that fight, that Louis was not punching with that old zing? Seamon, had to have known that all along, since he was training Louis and you guys post this as a smoking gun. Seamon, had to have known that Louis, no longer had the reflexes to connect with the shots he could see, plus the snap wasnt there. Boxing 101, lol

For you to be right, all the opinions of the ringside reporters who had seen Louis up close and personal ,from his beginnings up until his inevitable decline and sad end as a professional fighter would have to be wrong.

I am right my own mind and eyes confirm this from visual evidence, it seems all these observers were thinking of the Joe of old, rather then the old Joe, always commenting about the old Joe and comparing him to Joe of old. Look for the key words in their observations, almost all mentioned he was not the Joe of old, duh, that's right he wasnt.

I'm saying you are the one who is wrong ,you are the one dealing in fantasy.
pray tell, where is the fantasy when you cant see what happened in the last :30 sec. I see you are relying on the hugging calvary lol
Two ringside writers say Louis no longer had his speed or reflexes,you dismiss this as pointing out the obvious ,yet ignore the implications of such a loss of speed and reflexes.
Please stop reaching for things that are not there, I posted this earlier maybe you missed it like you missed that combo that old Joe threw.

The two Muppets who are happily concurring with you are doing so to further their own agendas and would readily argue the earth is flat to advance them.

Sorry to burst your bubble but they are on their own.

 

So you declined to give answers to my questions ,okay Dan.
Your attention seems to have been focused on me recently not the other way around,you've made a point of commenting negatively on just about every post I made on this thread.
No worries there ,you're entitled to say WETF you like
Let's just not pretend this is me pursuing you Dan Boy this began when I said Tua fighting Bryd was the nearest stylistic facsimile that Bryd had encountered to Marciano, for some obscure this had you frothing at the mouth and you haven't recovered from it yet.I didn't even make a pick on that thread just as well really, if I had chosen Byrd I might be getting death threats now!
Anyway Dan, keep up the good work, rip into me at your leisure and when you get tired, you can sit on the bench and let Mendoza spell you. You seem well suited and compliment each other well.

 

I only have one rule, no insulting or disparaging a posters family. What are hugs? Is this some shorthand?
You ducked my first question,anyone who has any pretensions towards knowledge of classic boxing knows Louis' best punch power wise was his right cross.
You ducked my second question too,ie How many right crosses did he throw?
I don't profess to have exceptional knowledge of boxing but I've followed if for 55years or so ,and practised it for nearly 20 so,at the risk of appearing conceited I claim to have the rudiments down.
Next point Agramonte was not hard to floor or even stop ,therefore Louis dropping him means little .
Louis got some needed rounds? Is it then your contention that he let Agramonte stay?Because that is the implication in your statement.

Next point Marciano not flooring Savold multiple times reflects adversely on Marciano, it is not an indication that it was a hard feat to achieve, Marciano was roundly criticized for the Savold fight.

Next point Walker was included because he is one of the inside the distance wins Louis managed,which I should have thought was self evident .

Next one.I've never said Louis was a punch-less wonder on his comeback my issue is with Marciano's fan base that seek to metamorphasise an old Louis into something he no longer was.
Bivins was not a big puncher and he was the younger, fresher man he naturally elected to fight on the back foot.How many times did he not? Next one you seem to agree with Seamon here if so, WTF are you arguing about?
Next point, the overwhelming opinions of all the major sportswriters.
You explain these by interpreting them as them looking for the younger Louis .Pure unsupported speculation on your part ,coupled with I might add, a large dose of arrogance.
Next.Ive never relied on anyone else to back me on this forum and whatever hugging cavalry means I don't require it.

I'm in no bubble I assure you.
Id like to point out that you didn't actually use personally insulting remarks as you did on earlier responses to me,that's good because I bow to no one when it comes to personal invective and vituperative replies .
I know who Woodcock was I've had a drink in the pub he used to run,he was not anything special.

 

Okay, Beshore was a defensive genius. You got the answer you been begging for, do your worst, McVey. Your whole life has been building to this moment, don't let yourself down.

You've been begging for my attention like a 2 dollar *****, and you are about to lose it. Sucks to be you. I look forward to you continuing to sarcastically reply to every god damn thing I write in this forum.

Whatever gets you off, freak.

And you can go cry in Seamus' arms on the pink bench in the back.

 

Yes indeed! Young 36 years old Savold was a sturdy guy, the 7 stoppages on his sheet up until his second to last fight with Louis were anomalies that could happen to any sturdy guy.You sure tell it like it is Dan!

Ah, still reaching, you dont know Savold, study up on the guy, he was a crafty guy and wouldnt always be in the best of shape. He just came off whipping Woodco-ck who was ranked.

Attaboy Mongoose! We look forward to you posting these articles and demolishing these fair weather critics such as Grantland Rice . WTF would he know?
Really wtf would you know by going only by a statistical record, Savold wasnt bad and he was durable. Marciano didnt drop him does it mean Marciano couldnt punch either, your logic is really surprising. Learn something about the guys you are talking about before you talk about them.

 

Thanks for your reply Dan.

Pink bench in the back?
Seamus and I are in love ,please don't attempt to cheapen that for us, and our chosen spot for expressing our love is a puce coloured hammock.
I'm gratified that you look forward to my replies ,I'm sure I'm not worthy of your attention , but I'll try to live up to your expectations!

 

I don't give a **** if you're *****.

 

Seamus, These were guys who had watched Louis' career develop first hand since the 1930's. Their analysis is being questioned by some folks with youtube accounts.

OK. I have a president to sell you.[/QUOTE]

Your wit rhymes with s*** lol, a personage such as you should know but I guess you dont, so I have to tell you. Visual evidence is readily available. The YT analysis is actual evidence, not an analysis. Again you and your compadre would rather be told what to think rather then use your own eyes. Just so that you know these scribes who have been watching Louis since he was in diapers, all say the same thing, Louis was not the Louis of old. Now tell me was this the Louis of old or an old Louis, and everybody including the scribes knew this, so what is the point, that he wasnt the Louis of old, was this the headline post Marciano fight Louis was not the louis of old?

 

I know a damn sight more about Woodcock and Savold than you do young Sir. Woodcock was a moderate heavyweight ruined by Baksi who permanently damaged his eyesight,[he was blind in one eye when he had the pub.] .
"It is a lamentable reflection of the standards of the day that Woodcock was able to box (Lee)Savold at all: he was virtually blind in his left eye, the result of an earlier drubbing at the hands of the Pennsylvanian former miner Joe Baksi, and yet passed all medical examinations".

A nice man who just wanted to tend his allotment in his retirement ,he was never really world class and his record emphatically shows it!

His only notable wins at heavyweight are over Lee Oma who is widely believed to have gone for a swim in that fight the Daily Mirror headline from Peter Wilson was "Oma ,Coma Aroma"and an over the hill Lesnevich. Savold was an in and outer he was ranked at a time when to be so was not particularly auspicious, included at the same time were such greats as Turkey Thompson,Lee Oma,Pat Valentino Agramonte,Johnny Flynn,Rusty Peaks,Joe Kahut,Beshore and the afore-mentioned Woodcock.

ps I sense you are getting a little testy here, don't let yourself down now lad.

Dan I thought that was what you were implying when you referred to," a pink bench in the back"?
You might not GAF Dan, but my partner ,our 5 kids and 7 grandchildren do .
I have a feeling Seamus might be a little upset too!

Still I'm sure you meant in in good part Dan, a sterling chap like yourself would never stoop to making homophobic remarks!

 

I don't give a **** about your parnter, kids, grand kids...who gives a ****? Why do you bring this **** up in a boxing forum?

 

Why do you bring up," pink benches in the back" and couple my name with another posters in that connection?
What has that to do with boxing Dan?

Parnter? You're not getting annoyed I hope Dan?

 

I genuinely didn't know this. It's hard to fault his left hook or his right uppercut. He definitely had the complete arsenal.
I guess perhaps because the right cross follows the left jab so nicely in the classic "one-two" combination, it's the first "power punch" we consider in any orthodox fighter.

 

I know. He also said (in 1951) Joe Louis belonged in the leading group of four heavyweights and any of them could beat each other (though he reckoned Charles potentially the best of the lot still).

 

Because you're acting like a *****.

No, I just don't give a **** about your partner.

 

Now this is childish, careful what you wish for, he who laughs last, laugh's best