Mike Tyson vs Tim Witherspoon 1986

Well, Tyson would have fought Witherspoon if Tim had beaten Bonecrusher.

It depends which Witherspoon showed up

If a focused, in shape Witherspoon showed up, I see Tyson winning by decision. He'd be more active. Tim didn't have the movement necessary to beat Tyson.

If the fat, but focused Witherspoon that beat Bruno showed up, Tyson by late rounds tko

If the fat, unfocused Witherspoon that got starched by Bonecrusher shows up, Tyson does what Bonecrusher did - easily disposes of Tim in one round.

 

Witherspoon was out of shape and distracted. He easily beat Bonecrusher 1.5 yrs. earlier. I don't think he took a dive, but no way he was foucused and/or in shape. He made Bonecrusher look like way more than he was that night.

Sure, Tyson would KO THAT Witherspoon in 1.

Much was written about Witherspoon's problems with Don King at the time. Tony Tubbs had just pulled out because Carl King was managing both Tim and Tony and Witherspoon was getting screwed financially by King. Nobody thought Bonecrusher beat the best version of Tim.

 

Yeah well it wasn't entirely surprising given that he went out there with no intention of winning and left himself open to a colossal puncher.. and frankly To make the claim that it was "the first dive in history where the diver got his front tooth knocked out " is to also imply that you know about every fight that was a dive ever. Care to elaborate on your wealth of knowledge ?

 

In 1990 I was watching Witherspoon fight Jeff Sims on Tuesday night fights hosted and commentated by Sean O'Grady and Al Albert. Tyrell Biggs and Ossie Ocasio were on the undercard. During the Witherspoon vs Sims match, O'Grady said he interviewed Spoon before the fight and asked him about the Bonecrusher match years earlier. He and King had been having numerous disputes about money both regarding past and future bouts ( spoon ended up suing king for lost earnings in the Bruno fight later ). Tim told Sean that King came to him before the fight and black mailed him to throw it... about 20 years after that someone posted an interview here that took place on a radio talk show and if I'm not mistaken it was another poster here who has his own show named Rumsfeld ( you'll have to ask him if my memory is accurate. ) I listened to the interview and noticed that his story had changed somewhat.. rather than claiming that king had " blackmailed" him, he now said that he wanted to be done with king and move on with his life and losing to smith was the only way to do it... so despite the subtle changes in the story 20 years apart, one thing remained consistent... Tim Witherspoon INTENDED to lose to James "Bonecrusher" Smith.

 

Yeah, and Bruno was too. He hadn't fought since October 1987. Bruno's layoff was 16 months.

 

Putting aside the alleged smith dive, this fight taking place in 86 would obviously have been for the wba title. Every thing at that time was lined up for tyson to become the unified champion so a lot was riding on Mike to win this one. If it's the smith fight spoon then he's going down hard early. We no how savage tyson early rounds can be. If he comes in as he did with the attitude he had against holmes.. A tough fight for Mike. Tim could box a fair bit, decent punch, over hand right was wicked. But tyson was on fire then so Tim's going to have to really plant those feet in to the canvas!. Early rounds Tim can't do a lot but hold on and clinch best he can. Tyson s doing his damnest to kill witherspoon in there! Tim manages to get a few good shots in but nothing that fazed mike. Later rounds I can see tyson slowing down, a lot of clinching going on and Tim's got his jab going. Round 12 tyson well in front, then spoon manages to get a booming right through and tyson s legs turn to jelly. Spoons throwing everything now but it s a to little to late for Tim. Unanimous for tyson but it's talked about for years later what could have been if witherspoon had got him earlier!

 

Oops, that doesn't count in Tysonland.....

 

Tysonland ?
Where lay-offs, divorces, drug use, rehab, injuries, management problems, changing trainers, family tragedy etc. never affect the other guy.

 

I think it all depends on Tim's mentality, would he go in there to survive or go in there to win.....

 

No one told Bruno to wait 16 months, he easily could have taken a tune up or two

You can hold Tyson accountable for his actions or inactions. But not his opponents.

 

No he didn't.

You didn't have to take a dive in order to sue your promoter. Fighters and champs do it all the time. And always have done it.

Also, Tim Witherspoon entered the ring fat and entered the ring after smoking weed before he signed with King, while he was with King, after he'd left King, after he got his settlement.

Tim Witherspoon "fought" Tony Tubbs and edged him for the WBA belt. Only Witherspoon failed a post fight drug test (Marijuana). Instead of ruling the fight a no contest (which would've been justifiable), and giving the title back to Tubbs, the WBA ordered a rematch.

Did Spoon "intend" to throw the Tubbs fight by smoking pot before the fight, knowing he'd get caught and the decision could get overturned?

NO. Because he got away with it. If the WBA had the title taken from him, he'd have blamed the drug use on someone. King. The mother of his kids. Or he'd say he didn't want to win the title. That's what he always did.

After Spoon and Tubbs signed for their rematch, both guys trained like they were expecting another slow fat guy dance. But, on a few days notice, Tubbs pulled out because he claimed he hurt his shoulder.

Spoon wasn't in any great shape, either, because he expected he'd just be rolling around with Tubbs again.

Handing Spoon a fight with Smith was like throwing him a bone. Spoon had beaten Smith the year before. Smith had lost to Tubbs. Smith had lost to freaking Marvis Frazier earlier that year. Smith was supposed to fight Mitch "Blood" Green on the undercard (and was expected to lose).

Like they had when they let Tim keep the belt after failing his drug test, the WBA and King were giving Spoon another easy out.

If King wanted to give Spoon someone tough, he'd have matched him with a young, undefeated and motivated guy like 12-0 Tyrell Biggs or the 16-1 Jimmy Clark (both of whom were fighting on the undercard, too).

Or, if King wanted to keep the peace, he could've given the fight to 16-2 Mitch "Blood" Green (who had only lost to the recently deposed WBC Champ Trevor Berbick and reigning WBC champ Mike Tyson) ... and who went batsh*t crazy when Bonecrusher got the fight instead of him. (Even going after King during the prefight press conference.)

Instead, King matched Tim with a guy everyone knew Spoon could beat. But Spoon came in in terrible shape (because he thought he was going to fight Tubbs again) and got destroyed. It was a hugely embarrassing loss. Spoon got his front tooth knocked out.

If you read Witherspoon's book, he doesn't give anyone in his career credit for beating him ... and he never takes the blame for any losses. He'll admit to not training and taking drugs before lots of fights. But he never blames THAT for his losses.

Instead, when any of his losses are brought up, he claims he didn't really "want" to win or he took a dive or it was simply someone else's fault. He didn't want to beat Thomas. He didn't want to Smith. He didn't want to beat Donald or Thunder or Golota or Nielsen or Barrett.

And the Bigfoot Martin loss wasn't because Spoon was fat, didn't train, didn't throw enough punches, according to Spoon it was Dennis Rappaport's fault. Rappaport was trying to make a fight between Spoon and Moorer, and Spoon said Rappaport insulted Moorer so the Michigan judges screwed Spoon on purpose with their decision. (But that excuse hasn't caught fire like the DIVE story has.)

Spoon was fat, drunk or stoned (or all three) through his entire career.

 

Well I don't know what else to say then.. I gave you a confession from the horses's mouth but I guess at the end of the day people will choose to believe what sits best with them..

 

People confess to a lot of things that never happened.

I'm saying there's a pattern with the guy where any time he lost, he said he meant to lose. The other guy didn't beat him ... he lost on purpose. It reaches comical proportions if you read his biography.

Even when he got his teeth punched out, he meant to lose.

It's ludicrous. No, he just got his ass kicked a handful of times. It happens.

 

This is a little harsh, but I agree, you can't assume Witherspoon threw the second Bonecrusher fight based on his word only, as Magoo has done.

Whether it was a dive or not, Witherspoon was clearly not in shape physically or mentally for the fight.

I disagree with your statement "Spoon was fat, drunk or stoned (or all three) through his entire career".

That is a hyperbolic statement.

He clearly had performances where he was mentally and physiclally focused - like the Tillis fight, the Holmes fight, the Page fight and many fights in his '90s comeback, like the Mercer and JL Gonzales fights.

The bottom line is if Tyson fought a focused and in shape Tyson in '86, it would have been a very competitive fight, and I see Tyson winning a pretty close decision.

 

I don't see why losing a tooth makes you feel that it was on the level. He went in their totally untrained and unmotivated because he had no intention of winning and let his guard down against a big puncher who was going balls out on him. Even while purposely taking a dive its not so surprising that he was injured. He said TWICE in two interviews 20 years apart that he wanted to be finished with king and took a dive. And BTW, in the sport of boxing, admitting to throwing a fight is actually LESS honorable than outright losing one, so I doubt he was trying to save any face.