What if ketchel ko 'd Johnson?

Your double standards have already been exposed, why do you continue to parrot them over and over, further making you look foolish? It's an odd line

Why do you continue to use double standards, get called on it, and proceed with repeating the same double standards? That is just an odd way to debate a subject. Let's examine, and I'd like yes or no answers to these questions. I don't need your commentary or explanations, I'd just like a yes or no answer.

1. You say here, that Sam was green when he fought Johnson and thus the fight doesn't count for much
A. But isn't it true that Sam had more fights under his belt when he met Johnson, than Johnson had when he met Joe C?

2. You say that, Sam had filled out to the HW body he would later become, and thus the fight Jack doesn't count for much
A. But isn't it true, that when Jack was KO'd by Joe, he also hadn't filled out to the HW body he would later become? Is that not true? What's worse, he actually gained more weight than Sam did to fill out his HW body

3. Is it not true that McVey and Joe were knocking out guys or knocking them down BEFORE, DURING and AFTER they met Johnson?

A. Which begs the question, if they weren't so green and crude to be knocking out other HW guys, why were they too crude to land anything on Johnson? Do you honestly expect people to believe that in all the fights Johnson had with McVey and Joe J... that they never once landed anything flush or hard? You can't really believe that do you? What's worse, they wouldn't even need to, because Stanley landed NOTHING hard on Jack either. He landed a glancing blow. So you're not only telling me that they didn't land a hard blow, but they didn't even land a glancing blow in over a hundreds rounds of boxing between them? You can't really believe that do you?

4. Finally, is it not true that the video appears to show Johnson going down before the punch lands. Is this not true?

 

K ,you would make a fine advocate!

 

nah, that's all your bud. You've said some of this same stuff how many times before LOL

 

Not as concise as you,because his palpable bigoted hatred gets up my nose so much I get angry .lol

 

Really is no argument that the Johnson Ketchel fight was fixed and the kd faked. Gunboat Smith was interviewed just before he died. He was at ringside and knew both fighters well and he stated the fight and kd were fixed and fake. First hand personal knowledge trumps all speculation.

 

If you believe that, what other fight for Johnson was also fixed?

 

no no , it was setup to last the full fight length to make it entertaining for the recording

thats different from claiming someone took a dive.

 

Hold on. Sam was 156 pounds and according to the best research just 20 years old! Johnson started boxing in 1897! Langford started boxing in 1902. No double standard here, just facts! Truth: Johnson beat a much smaller man who was a far cry from what he would become as a heavyweight, and was in the game for several more years when they fought.

END OF. No debating these points.

You asked why could not bigger heavies KO Johnson. Well, Klondike a big man for his day about 200 pounds did TKO him prior to Johnson fighting Choynski. GB Smith TKO'd Johnson in 1909 in a four round exhibition match.

Kaufman was a big man, but who did he really beat? He was Ko'd by a light punching Jack O'Brien, and finished 21-7, 6KO's against.

Jeffries was far too old and inactive. Willard was not, he produced a ten count KO.

I do not dispute the fact that Sam Mcvey could hit! But as a teenager, would you not say he was very raw and unrefined?

Yes or no KuRuPT?!

Power by itself without skills and experiences isn't going to produce knockouts vs a much more experienced and skilled man. McVey hardly landed anything significant on Johnson in what I read, so if you're saying this prove Johnson had a good chin based on these fights, you're wrong!

Fast fact, Mcvey had not gone past six rounds before he meet Johnson, nor had he beaten anyone that would be viewed in the top 15.

Smaller men who likely did not hit as hard as McVey knocked him down and in some cases out because they had better skills when they fought Johnson.

Finally, if you think Johnson vs Ketchel was a fix, please come out and say it. Double dare. My hunch is you will not go there.





KuRuPT


Why do you continue to use double standards, get called on it, and proceed with repeating the same double standards? That is just an odd way to debate a subject. Let's examine, and I'd like yes or no answers to these questions. I don't need your commentary or explanations, I'd just like a yes or no answer.

1. You say here, that Sam was green when he fought Johnson and thus the fight doesn't count for much

A. But isn't it true that Sam had more fights under his belt when he met Johnson, than Johnson had when he met Joe C?"

>>>Yes, he was 20, green as a heavyweight, and fought for fewer years. Also about 156 pounds! Langford having more total fights here means far less when you weight in the facts. You have one argument, I have several more.

" 2. You say that, Sam had filled out to the HW body he would later become, and thus the fight Jack doesn't count for much

A. But isn't it true, that when Jack was KO'd by Joe, he also hadn't filled out to the HW body he would later become? Is that not true? What's worse, he actually gained more weight than Sam did to fill out his HW body"

>>> Chins do not get better for most as they move up divisons. Too bad this one is not on flim.

3. Is it not true that McVey and Joe were knocking out guys or knocking them down BEFORE, DURING and AFTER they met Johnson?

>>>He did not beat anyone that would have been ranked in the top 15 before he meet Johnson. Again, McVey teenager! Who the heck did he beat? Fred Rusell, career record 17-14-4 was his best win prior to Johnson. Joe Jeannetter started out 0-3 before his Johnson fight. Use your head! I think the poster Mcvey has taken over your brian.



" Which begs the question, if they weren't so green and crude to be knocking out other HW guys, why were they too crude to land anything on Johnson? Do you honestly expect people to believe that in all the fights Johnson had wit McVey and Joe J... that they never once landed anything flush or hard? You can't really believe that do you? What's worse, they wouldn't even need to, because Stanley landed NOTHING hard on Jack either. He landed a glancing blow. So you're not only telling me that they didn't land a hard blow, but they didn't even land a glancing blow in over a hundreds rounds of boxing between them? You can't really believe that do you? "

I asked for proof in the news reads. From what I have read McVey did nto land much. Crude and a teenager.

You do know Jeannette was 0-3 when he first meet Johnson, correct? Then you say oh but Langford had more fights. DOUBLE STANDARD. Jeannette has no amateur career at all. Johnson beat a raw novice, then had a tougher go as Jeannette learned on the job.

As Champion he would not fight Langford, McVey or Jeanette, when they matured at were near or at their best. Well, he did sign to fight Langford, but pulled out!

Have you seen the Burns and Flynn fights? They did not land much, did they? At least they were in their primes, and likely better than the 20-year-old 156 pound Langford, the green noise Jeanette, and the teenager and also green McVey.


" Finally, is it not true that the video appears to show Johnson going down before the punch lands. Is this not true? "

How do yo uknow he wasn't in the process of trying to duck, or moving? But if you think it was a FIX, then what other fixes did Johnson win?

 

He has never been able to grasp that.Robinson carried some opponents,Langford too,and I expect Burley had to at some point .It's obviously totallly different to throwing a fight but he can't see past his blind hatred.

 

PTUOTE="Mendoza, post: 18392649, member: 19227"]Hold on. Sam was 156 pounds and according to the best research just 20 years old! Johnson started boxing in 1897! Langford started boxing in 1902. No double standard here, just facts! Truth: Johnson beat a much smaller man who was a far cry from what he would become as a heavyweight, and was in the game for several more years when they fought.

END OF. No debating these points.

You asked why could not bigger heavies KO Johnson. Well, Klondike a big man for his day about 200 pounds did TKO him prior to Johnson fighting Choynski. GB Smith TKO'd Johnson in 1909 in a four round exhibition match.

Kaufman was a big man, but who did he really beat? He was Ko'd by a light punching Jack O'Brien, and finished 21-7, 6KO's against.

Jeffries was far too old and inactive. Willard was not, he produced a ten count KO.

I do not dispute the fact that Sam Mcvey could hit! But as a teenager, would you not say he was very raw and unrefined?

Yes or no KuRuPT?!

Power by itself without skills and experiences isn't going to produce knockouts vs a much more experienced and skilled man. McVey hardly landed anything significant on Johnson in what I read, so if you're saying this prove Johnson had a good chin based on these fights, you're wrong!

Fast fact, Mcvey had not gone past six rounds before he meet Johnson, nor had he beaten anyone that would be viewed in the top 15.

Smaller men who likely did not hit as hard as McVey knocked him down and in some cases out because they had better skills when they fought Johnson.

Finally, if you think Johnson vs Ketchel was a fix, please come out and say it. Double dare. My hunch is you will not go there.





KuRuPT


Why do you continue to use double standards, get called on it, and proceed with repeating the same double standards? That is just an odd way to debate a subject. Let's examine, and I'd like yes or no answers to these questions. I don't need your commentary or explanations, I'd just like a yes or no answer.

1. You say here, that Sam was green when he fought Johnson and thus the fight doesn't count for much

A. But isn't it true that Sam had more fights under his belt when he met Johnson, than Johnson had when he met Joe C?"

>>>Yes, he was 20, green as a heavyweight, and fought for fewer years. Also about 156 pounds! Langford having more total fights here means far less when you weight in the facts. You have one argument, I have several more.

" 2. You say that, Sam had filled out to the HW body he would later become, and thus the fight Jack doesn't count for much

A. But isn't it true, that when Jack was KO'd by Joe, he also hadn't filled out to the HW body he would later become? Is that not true? What's worse, he actually gained more weight than Sam did to fill out his HW body"

>>> Chins do not get better for most as they move up divisons. Too bad this one is not on flim.

3. Is it not true that McVey and Joe were knocking out guys or knocking them down BEFORE, DURING and AFTER they met Johnson?

>>>He did not beat anyone that would have been ranked in the top 15 before he meet Johnson. Again, McVey teenager! Who the heck did he beat? Fred Rusell, career record 17-14-4 was his best win prior to Johnson. Joe Jeannetter started out 0-3 before his Johnson fight. Use your head! I think the poster Mcvey has taken over your brian.



" Which begs the question, if they weren't so green and crude to be knocking out other HW guys, why were they too crude to land anything on Johnson? Do you honestly expect people to believe that in all the fights Johnson had wit McVey and Joe J... that they never once landed anything flush or hard? You can't really believe that do you? What's worse, they wouldn't even need to, because Stanley landed NOTHING hard on Jack either. He landed a glancing blow. So you're not only telling me that they didn't land a hard blow, but they didn't even land a glancing blow in over a hundreds rounds of boxing between them? You can't really believe that do you? "

I asked for proof in the news reads. From what I have read McVey did nto land much. Crude and a teenager.

You do know Jeannette was 0-3 when he first meet Johnson, correct? Then you say oh but Langford had more fights. DOUBLE STANDARD. Jeannette has no amateur career at all. Johnson beat a raw novice, then had a tougher go as Jeannette learned on the job.

As Champion he would not fight Langford, McVey or Jeanette, when they matured at were near or at their best. Well, he did sign to fight Langford, but pulled out!

Have you seen the Burns and Flynn fights? They did not land much, did they? At least they were in their primes, and likely better than the 20-year-old 156 pound Langford, the green noise Jeanette, and the teenager and also green McVey.


" Finally, is it not true that the video appears to show Johnson going down before the punch lands. Is this not true? "

How do yo uknow he wasn't in the process of trying to duck, or moving? But if you think it was a FIX, then what other fixes did Johnson win?[/QUOTE]
Kaufman beat
Shreck
Flynn
OBrien
Flynn
He was for a time considered the best white fighter in the world.

When Jeannette was beaten by Johnson inJan 1906 in a fight in which he was floored multiple times ,he had stopped Langford just a month earlier!
Johnson not only signed to fight Langford he signed to fight him twice, once in London which he pulled out from when he became champion because the purse was a derisory £3000. Johnson agreed to fight Langford on another occasion but Joe Woodman Sam's manager, could not come up with the binding deposit.
Johnson also signed to fight Langford and McVey in Australia for Hugh McIntosh as part of a two fight package for him, McIntosh withdrew the offer when Johnson became a fugitive from the US .Johnson also signed to fight Jeannette twice in NY for the McMahon Brothers , but the NY Boxing Commission vetoed both fights,and the promoting brothers withdrew their offers.All this is extensively covered and verified in Pollack's excellent second volume on Jack Johnson, The Reign.Including dates and purses.
Again you repeat that Langford weighed 156lbs when he fought Johnson although I've told you many, many times previously, and at least twice in this thread that neither man weighed in!

Now I'm getting into KuRuPT's BRIAN! That's a new one!LOL

Excellent entertainment!

 

The point is we have an credible eye witness who was at ringside who knew both fighters who stated this specific fight was faked. To then turn this one statement regarding one fight into a tirade to infer Johnson's other bouts can be called into question is a stretch to say the least.

 

np, mandozy has fcuked off again once his latest house of cards was exposed again.