What will it take to dislodge Ali & Louis from 1&2?

Let’s say that you are right (I doubt).

Weak eras are ten a penny, and they are not enough to explain outstanding success.

There is always some sort of opposition that can give an ATG a fight.

You could find the worst fighter who got into the top two in any decade, and use them as an argument against the era.

The reality is that certain fighters get through due to good management, or simply due to getting the right matches.

The light gloves cut both ways, because everybody wore them.

You can't reduce Louis's power, without improving his chin.

All the evidence suggests that they made no appreciable difference.

Actually some people were ranking him #1 all time before he even won the title!

 

Are we meant to hold it against Louis that Walcott perhaps should have got the decision against him? He was clearly past his best and going up against a very good HW in his red hot prime (old, yes, but never better). And he won the rematch without dispute.

We can argue for ever (and have on this forum ) about how Ali and Louis would do in today's scene, just like how we can argue about how Pelé, Maradona, Jim Brown, Wilt Chamberlain etc would do today in their sports. The simple fact is, we'll never know and I can't see how it would matter anyhow since any difference would be down to increases in health and size of the general population; advances in the nutrition and sports science as well as PEDs and the "standing on the shoulder of giants"-effect (i e learning from previous generations). What we do know is how they did in their own time and that's all that matters.

Yes, perhaps Pelé would struggle to get a regular starting spot even in one of the weaker teams in the Prem today if he was brought from the early 60's with a time machine. Would that mean that for example Walcott is a greater player? Not in a million years.

 

Exactly.

 

a combination of Louis and Ali and he hasnt been born yet

 

LEGTIAMELTY? SURVING? Are you also Ra's Al- Guhl? It would explain a lot!

 

I dont think anyone will knock pre exile ali off number one spot for sheer ability alone. What he had i dont think you can train. He,ll maybe be knocked off for overall career. But sheer ability as a heavyweight for a specific period of time no one will ever get to that level or at least i dont think so anyway.

Watch him against patterson 1 before the exile. Hes the closest thing to poetry in motion you ll ever see. Only watched the first four rounds today but in that he completely toyed with patterson who wasnt exactly a bad fighter himself. You just got the feeling ali wasnt out of second gear. Landed punches at will.

Never seen a fighter where everything worked together at the same time like that. I dont think any amount of training will get anyone to that level. It was actually quite surreal to watch at times. Looked like he knew exactly what was going to happen....before it did.

Outside the liston fights a lot of pre exile ali fights get overlooked. People have seen a lot more of him post exile. But if anyone does get the chance...try watching or rewatching his pre exile fights. The thing is it looks like hes not really giving his best and if he really wanted to could finish anyone if he wanted. Just looked like he enjoyed himself in there too much to have an early night. Cant help but feel sorry for the opponents. He had it all really. Speed. Reflexes. Movement. Punch on the move in any direction. Difficult to catch with a shot. Accuracy. Probably the best jab i ve ever seen. Even his power is underrated. Add to that how he put it all together.

Also go back and watch liston v patterson. If ali never ended his reign i m not sure who would have. Hes a lot better than giving credit for off the back of coming off meeting his match in a real special talent. I actually think its the only style that would have beat liston. A mover anyway. Should be rated way higher than he does nowadays.

 

No. And I don't have much time for your silly theories either captain spell check.

 

Let’s say that you are right (I doubt).

Weak eras are ten a penny, and they are not enough to explain outstanding success.

>>> historians suggest I'm right.

There is always some sort of opposition that can give an ATG a fight.

You could find the worst fighter who got into the top two in any decade, and use them as an argument against the era.

>>> I used two. Galento and another. If you want to compare 1's and 2's from the 1930's or 1940's to decades past you'll see they were often weaker.


The reality is that certain fighters get through due to good management, or simply due to getting the right matches.


>>> agreed.

The light gloves cut both ways, because everybody wore them.

You can't reduce Louis's power, without improving his chin.

>>> but you must admit in Louis time few had power and skills. So it was his advantage.



Actually some people were ranking him #1 all time before he even won the title!

>>> really? Who? Most felt he was 3-6 best as champion. That is factual.

 

your dictionary must be very small.

 

Remember when, instead of typing Sam Langford you typed Sang Froid? I do.lol

 

Like his brain!

 

I don't think anyone will ever surpass those two in legacy. Boxing meant more culturally back then than it probably ever will again.

 

I would say that there were at least three heavyweigths who were better than Galento, ranked beaneath him in the rankings the year that he was ranked #1.

The same argument could possibley be made of Oma.

Either way, weaker contenders penetrate the uper echelons of the rankings in most eras.

I don't think that the smaller gloves make a lot of difference to be honest.

Now If I am wrong then it would also be to Louis's disadvantage, because it would have magnified issues with his durability.

Harold Salsinger of the Detroit News said that Louis was the greatest heavyweight of all time after the Max Baer fight.

 

Just from the numbers I had to hand, Ali and Louis both fought around 40 ranked fighters. I'd say that's a good indication of why they're up there, because those kinds of numbers are exactly why their résumés are as stacked as they are. Both were around the top for roughly 12 years (give or take due to their inactivity, and my poor memory) and they made plenty of title defences during that time.

I always think that there's a few differing factors to consider when ranking fighters, and that the three main categories for ranking guys at each weight are: Longevity, Consistency and Résumé. While Ali and Louis are basically even in terms of longevity; Ali has the best resume ever at heavyweight, and Louis' is arguably the most consistent (although I'd argue Marciano has a case, albeit over a much shorter length of time; similarly, Holmes also has a very good shout).

I think for someone to jump to the top, they either need something in-between those two: with a mix of both great résumé, and great consistency - even if these aspects are to a lesser degree than Ali's and Louis', or have ridiculous longevity. If someone came along at 21 and didn't lose their title until their late 30s/early 40s they'd have a great argument for being a top three lock, provided they took on the best fighters in the world, not a slew of gimps the IBF can find for someone like Sven Ottke.

I doubt it's gonna happen, though. What Ali and Louis did is extraordinary, and made even more impressive by the fact that you can't even have 40 fights with ranked fighters nowadays. It just doesn't happen. Wladimir Klitschko honestly had a good go at it and I have him floating around the middle of my top ten, but I doubt we're going to get another guy with a career arc like his anytime soon. Shame, really. Especially since most Klitschko fights were wrangled, monotonous messes.