McGovern vs Gans

IMO he was overwhelmed by McGovern's attack and got caught cold and couldnt recover. It happens, but we all are assuming these things, when there is tape of the fight. Nobody can say that Gans didnt get hit, not once but a bunch of times, by an ATG himself, and a murderous puncher by everybody's reckoning

 

If it was tank job, why didn't he just stay down?

 

Too bad we don't have the other bout, which Gans admitted to be fake, on film. From the description of it, it resembled the McGovern fight a lot, with Gans falling to his knees when no punches landed.

 

Was there ever a mention of a rematch? With McGovern?

 

It honestly looks fake to me. If his equilibrium is off after the first KD, why does he go back to his corner walking just fine. How is he able to walk out for round 2 with seemingly zero balance issues? Then all of a sudden he gets rushed and his legs turn to jello in that moment? That seems odd to me and staged. Don't buy it.

 

If you dont see it you dont see it, no problem. But one thing you cant say is he didnt get hit cos he did, by a top 100 atg puncher. His legs were doing funny things as the film shows after getting hit.

 

McGovern was an average puncher at best at LW and he was hitting a guy who took punches from Sam ****ing Langford and Joe ****ing Walcott two guys who knocked out HWs. To pretend that McGovern brought more firepower to the table than those guys and brought something that Gans had never seen before is ridiculous. And again, Gans fights nothing like Gans in the Mcgovern fight. He stands there pawing at the air like a girl and waits for McGovern to come right at him without even throwing a jab. Compare that to the stick and move artist of the Herman and Nelson fights who comes out popping the jab and firing with both hands. Nelson was bigger, stronger, and hit as hard or harder than McGovern himself. Gans went 42 rounds with him in desert heat and took some hellacious punches in the process. Watch him snap out his jab at an onrushing Nelson and then watch him just hold his left out at McGovern like hes measuring him but never does anything. Watch the weak uppercuts he throws inside that have no steam whatsoever then watch how vicious he is against Nelson on the inside. He has no footwork whatsoever against McGovern and yet he looks like a dancing master against Nelson. Against McGovern when Gans steps back and creates distance he doesnt throw anything whereas against Nelson he creates distances and constantly catches Nelson. Nelson was much stronger than McGovern and look how Gans holds up to his wrestling as opposed to McGovern against whom he looks like a reed in a high wind. Watch him constantly drop his hands to his sides against McGovern but against Nelson actually uses the shoulder roll and a right guard. The very first time Gans goes down the left hook by Mcgovern doesnt even land, it loops around the back of the neck. Its not even disputable that it landed. It didnt. It literally loops around Gans' neck, misses entirely and Gans crumbles. If you see a punch landing here you are imagining things. And thats the bottom line. Some people will ignore what they see and know because they WANT to believe the fairy tale. Just prior to the fight the manager of Tattersalls having heard the rapidly spreading rumors of a fix took the referee, George Siler, aside and instructed him that the fight must be cleared of any hint of a fix. Siler took the fighters aside and instructed them that they had to give their best efforts. After the fight Siler refused to go so far as to say the bout was fixed but clearly troubled he stated that Gans had given a poor effort and the experts ringside declared that Gans had not fought up to his previous ability. Later Siler stated that if Gans was trying to win then he (Siler) did not know his business. Siler also backs up what can clearly be seen on the film: Gans punches were not thrown with any power on them whatsoever. Gans manager gave the excuse that Gans had been hit at the start of the first rounds by a left to the stomach that was identical to the Fitz-Corbett "solar plexus" punch and that ruined Gans. This is untrue as the films show McGovern landing nothing of consequence to the body and in fact hes head hunting most of the time. Gans is fight decidedly unlike Gans long before McGovern lands anything to the body. If that wasnt enough the betting irregularities alone were enough to cast a shadow over the fight. The money that flooded in on McGovern at the last minute swung the odds heavily in his favor despite the fact that most experts gave him little chance. Gamblers were ringside at the fight carrying huge rolls of money and offering great odds on what most would have considered the longshot of Gans being stopped by McGovern early. In gambling establishments all over the country money flooded in from out of town on McGovern which was considered odd by most. Gans manager defended himself and Gans by claiming that he actually bet between $3,500 and 5,000 on Gans and lost but people close to him stated that no money actually ever changed hands and that this "bet" was a ruse to cover the fix.

 

1906-02-25 The Chicago Sunday Tribune (Chicago, IL) (page II4)
[BY GEORGE SILER.]

Lightweight Champion Joe Gans was the star attraction in pugilism last week, and during the time he held the center of the stage he confessed to faking with Jimmy Britt and with Terry McGovern. These battles always have been on the suspicious list, but the "framers" of them were too close mouthed to "peach." And even now, when brought face to face with the facts, they are loud in their denials.

Gans' disclosures implicate the Britt brothers, Jimmy and Willie, Al Herford, and himself in the Britt fake, and himself and Herford in the McGovern affair. Regarding the latter he states that he and his "crooked" manager expected to reap a harvest, but that his share of the ill gotten proceeds fell away below expectations.

There were no details other than the betting angle in the McGovern job, but, according to his confession, it required master minds to pull off the Britt fake successfully. He said Herford was compelled to post $5,000 as a guarantee that he [Gans] would not knock out Jimmy, and that, failing to live up to the agreement, his end of the purse money would be only 10 per cent; also, that if he permitted Jimmy to make a good showing and then lose on a foul, he would receive 32 1/2 per cent of the purse, and, presumably, a percentage of the winning bets.
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The Britts and Herford, as naturally would be expected, deny the battle was fought other than on the level, and there you are. I doubt if Gans would have confessed if he was not compelled to shoulder all the resposibility. He was denounced as being the greatest faker in the business, and this by men who profited by his dishonest work. He desired a return match with Jimmy Britt to demonstrate his superiority, but Jimmy denounced him a faker and would have no dealings with him. This, Gans considered, was rubbing it in too hard, hence his exposure.

Having told the inside facts of his battle with Britt, it was only right he should tell what he knew of the McGovern affair. These, he states, are the only crooked fights he took part in, and his record during his twelve years in the ring shows no others. We, who are several thousand miles from San Francisco, are compelled to judge coast fight matters from the press accounts and from private sources, both more or less prejudiced, but all of the press accounts and all the private information that could be gleaned stated the Gans-Britt fight smelled strongly of fake.

Gans simply could not or would not fight, with the result that Jimmy, according to the reported compact, had all the better of the milling. He repeatedly struck Gans when the latter was down, and after several cautions was disqualified in the fifth round. The peculiar thing about Britt's foul tactics is that he never indulged in them before nor since. He has been fighting professionally just four years, during which he has contested in fifteen battles, and never so far forgot himself as to hit a fallen opponent. He generally is spoken of as being the coolest fighter in the game, but he certainly did not demonstrate it when he fought Gans. In fact, he fought as if he courted disqualification and made a grand stand play by taking a wallop at the referee because he gave him what, Gans says, he was looking for.
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The expose deprives Gans of the pleasure of ever meeting Britt in the ring, which is a good thing for James Edward. There has been talk of barring the colored champion from the coast, but judging from his present match with Mike "Twin" Sullivan, which is to be decided at Los Angeles under the management of Morris Levy of San Francisco, California fight fans like to see him in action.

Before being matched with Mike, the colored fellow proposed to fight Britt, Nelson, Herman, and Herrera ten rounds each, all in the same ring, on the same night, with a twenty minute intermission between fights. All Gans requested was to select his opponents, and if he lost only one fight he was not to receive a penny. The proposition, while a bold one, would never be accepted, as the men he offers to fight would not enhance their reputations.
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Now that Gans has become penitent and has whetted the public's appetite for scandal, other guilty fighters, managers, and promoters might offer to take the witness stand and testify what they know about jobs. I am positive a number of Chicago fight fans would like to hear from Sam Pooler regarding the "frameup" between his fighter, Eddie Santry, and Terry McGovern which failed to go through because Terry, accidentally and unintentionally, knocked Santry out in the fifth round. Sam might confess how his boy and McGovern rehearsed their boxing stunt, how the boy who did not live up to his agreement not to try for a knockout was not to receive a penny of the purse, and how, after the accidental knockout, Terry's manager, Sam Harris, squared matters by paying Santry about $700, the amount, he claimed, he had bet that he would stay the limit. That would not make bad reading, would it?

Tom O'Rourke might tell about how he handled Joe Walcott in his fight with "Kid" Lavigne on the coast, and why Joe quit before Tommy West at Madison Square Garden after having all the better of the fight and with the wise money on West; Jim Corbett and "Kid" McCoy might tell us the inside facts of their "barney" fight at the garden, and there are a few New Yorkers who might tell how much money they won when Lightweight Jack O'Brien quit in twelve rounds before George McFadden when the betting, which should have been in favor of O'Brien, was that McFadden would win in fifteen rounds.
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Billy Nolan, who looks after Battling Nelson's interests, was the happiest man in the country when he read of Gans' accusation of Jimmy Britt. Billy is the only manager of a fighter who gave the San Francisco fight promoters a winning argument. They tried to bulldoze him into accepting Jeffries as referee of the Britt-Nelson fight, but he stood pat and practically compelled them to accept the man he wanted. For this Jim Coffroth, who managed the fight, deducted $1,000 from his end of the purse for the referee's services and has not, as yet, paid him the $5,000 due him from the pictures of the contest. Besides this Coffroth, it is reported, has barred him or his boy Nelson from fighting at San Francisco, to which Nolan takes no exceptions, stating he would not fight in 'Frisco until he receives the $5,000 due him and "Bat."

Nolan claims Coffroth was in on the Britt-Gans fake to the extent that he personally handed over to Britt the winner's end of the purse. Also that Coffroth threatened to show up Jimmy by producing duplicates of the checks. Nolan is a "native son" and was quite intimate with Coffroth at the time, and he undoubtedly knows what he is talking about. Billy has practically matched Nelson to fight Britt on the coast in April, but not unless Coffroth pays him the $5,000.

 

klompton2, McGovern was an average puncher at best at LW and he was hitting a guy who took punches from Sam ****ing Langford and Joe ****ing Walcott two guys who knocked out HWs.

We should write a book together point - counter point, your comments make no sense. Especially when there is visual evidence.
Since you have little actual boxing knowledge you say these things. So you are saying that McGovern lacked the power at 10 pds over his weight, right? Too funny. Since you dont know what you are watching even if it's staring you in the face. Something is making Gans take a defensive mode. Since you never fought, one of the hardest guys to fight is a wild hard punching swinger. It makes an opponent think of defending himself. Which is what Gans is doing from the first bell and holding. Here is another thing, which I stated before McGovern was a quick starter, and Gans wasnt. If you knew something about fight tactic's you would know catching a guy cold is very effective. Since you are going by records, Gans was put on the deck in the 1st rd vs Dal Hawkins. Natural punchers as was McGovern can carry their power a few divisions, maybe not as deadly but enough to seemingly hurt Gans which is quite clear in the visual evidence, and also in the way he fought, defensively. Gans didnt fire back cos of the incoming, but you deny visual evidence.


To pretend that McGovern brought more firepower to the table than those guys and brought something that Gans had never seen before is ridiculous.

Something was making Gans hold, especially behind the head, to pretend that you dont see what is plainly evident is surprising. O but the "fix" theory makes more sense right? Gans was such a good actor as was Jack Johnson that he knew how to flounder and make his legs dance to the powerless McGovern's punches.

And again, Gans fights nothing like Gans in the Mcgovern fight. He stands there pawing at the air like a girl and waits for McGovern to come right at him without even throwing a jab.

I guess you dont know what getting hit with small gloves feels like by a murderous puncher ATG puncher. Gans took heavy firepower from McGovern but of course you will deny that this happened. Gans was holding on for dear life and thinking more of defense but of course you deny seeing this in favor of your "fix" theory.

Compare that to the stick and move artist of the Herman and Nelson fights who comes out popping the jab and firing with both hands.

Glad you brought the Herman fight up, Gans popping jab was like JJ's jab, more suited to football then boxing, a stiff arm jab.

Nelson was bigger, stronger, and hit as hard or harder than McGovern himself.

And you know this as a fact, in what ATG greatest punchers list is Nelson in? You really should be embarrased by making statements such as this.

Gans went 42 rounds with him in desert heat and took some hellacious punches in the process.

Nelson, wasnt a big puncher, again what list is Nelson on. He was a wearing down puncher I would say his ko's were for the most part in the later rds. But of course you know better. Both Gans and Nelson were distance runners they went from less to more. Now if you said that Gans would've beaten McGovern over 10rds, I would agree, it just that Gans needed rds to warm but I guess you wouldnt know that. Look at Gans record, the only early rd ko's were vs beginners.

Part II coming up

 

I stated this a while ago and was chastised by some boxing historians, but I don't think McGovern was such a terrible knocker out as some people think him to be, he typically wore opponents down with a lot of punches, rather than hurting or knocking them down/out with single punches. Although, to prove that I'd need to re-read my scrapbook on McGovern which I don't have time for and don't really care, at the moment.

 

Again, how can somebody be so messed up from punches that there equilibrium is off, but yet seemingly walk around just fine with no issue what so ever; then, when he's rushed, all of a sudden he has bambi legs? That doesn't make sense. You can see him walking back to his corner and when he comes out again, seemingly no issue with his legs what so ever. Then when attacked, he can barely stand. Just seems odd to me, and the betting seals the deal imo. I guess we'll never know for sure, but the evidence seems to back up a fix imo

 

OMG, Senya, all this and there is no proof except Gans allegedly saying this, give you a slight hint of another "fake", as in fake confession by a famous boxer Jack Johnson signed confession of throwing the Willard fight. Now the Britt fight I cant comment on cos it's not part of this thread. Back to the McGovern fight, George Siler, wasnt he the one who changed his mind from the ring to the hotel? All this is not proof of anything, that there was a fix in the Mcgovern fight, but if you truly believe it, fine go right ahead, I'd rather believe my eyes especially when there is a pretty clear tape of the fight, and Gans was getting clobbered, by a great puncher and especially with the small gloves they used.

 

It seems the people who made these top 100 ATG punchers didnt know what they were talking about, and all his early ko's were not ko's but just wins and all the record keepers made them up to make McGovern seem like he could hit, makes sense.

 

Dempsey you can post your asinine bull**** all you want. 90% of the time its starry eyed hero worship with no substance.. I dont even read most of it. Im not interested enough in what you have to say. But to dispute that Gans went down from a punch that didnt land the first time means you are blind or have an agenda. To dispute that Nelson was bigger and stronger is just ridiculous (just go read the reports of their bout where Nelson was literally tossing McGovern around the ring. Oh wait, anyone who actually tries to learn their history is anathema to you...). To dispute that he hit as hard or harder than Terry McGovern defies the simple fact that he has just as many knockouts against bigger men than McGovern does and unless Im mistaken he didnt have anywhere near as many fixes or rumors thereof attached to his name. To dispute that McGovern hit anywhere near as hard as guys like Langford and Walcott, well, I'll let the other posters deal with that little fantasy. All I can do is laugh at that assertion. Think little Terry could have made it out of one round with Joe Jeanette much less floor him numerous times and win a 20 round contest? To keep going on and on and on about McGovern's small gloves as if Gans didnt fight EVERY opponent wearing those small gloves is, again, purely wishful thinking on your part. To dispute that McGovern was an average puncher at best at LW is again, flying in the face of reality. Just go look at his record against LWs. I could go on and on but its ridiculous. Your delusional and thats the end of it. Believe what you want but anyone can compare Gans performances and see hes play acting, particularly when he goes down from a punch that doesnt even land. I'll let everyone else be the judge, most throughout history have sided with me. When Im on the opposite side of the fence as you I consider myself in good company.

 

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Start watching at 3:40 and tell me he didnt dive like Greg Louganis