George Foreman , overrated ?

That's how it was for me too. I was 15 years old when he came back and was fascinated by the thought of an actual old champion coming back from that 1970s "Ali era". When you are 15, it seemed far too far away. Larry Holmes was winding up his career then. It was two eras ago that Foreman had last been around! There was a photo of George at some kind of hearing to get licensed, and it was like, he's got a bald head! George did not even look like the photos from his fighting days. It just seemed like a joke.

Joe Frazier was training Marvis back then. Frazier and Ali were introduced at the fights like royalty. You never saw or heard of Foreman during that early 1980s period at boxing shows at all. You could buy Videos of course. I collected them and I knew the Foreman story. It was like Ali regaining the title eclipsed Foreman altogether.

I'd grown up on Joe Bugner continual comebacks but he was never coming back from that kind of lay off. In those days with no internet if you wanted to do research you got the background story from your dad then went to the library to read up on past eras. And those books in the library (typically pictorial, coffee table sized heavyweight history books) said stuff about Foreman that he was big powerful beat Frazier in an upset, lost to Ali in an upset..then did very little serious boxing after that. George actually got a bad rap in the books I read.

 

yes I agree. It is also reasonable for you to say so especially when I feel it was not what you expected.

But back when there had only been less than 20 champions or so, not making the top ten was a bigger deal than it is now. I think there was what 15 champions before Ali? Some ratings, if they placed Foreman at all before his comeback, it was in the lowest percentile. One respected historian just did not include George. He included Holmes and Leon Spinks who were still active, but not George who had been retired 8 years by then.

based on these lists that's definitely what it says. So yes it is definitely true. You are correct.

but I was never talking about where he is now. #15 is great in 2017. Rated ATG #15 in 1974 is kind of Sharkey territory. In 1974 You've only got Corbett, Fitz, Jeffries, Burns, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Schmeling, Carnera, Baer, Braddock, Louis, Charles, Walcot, Rocky, Patterson, Ingo, Liston, Ali to chose from. Once you have ten guys selected who are you left with? If you only have those guys your not really left with ATG champions once you get outside of ten. It's a struggle. Where as By 2017 there's another 40 years worth of split titles and dominant champions. Guys like Lewis, Holyfield, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, Riddick Bowe and the Klitschko brothers.

that seems to be the established view today. Apparently. Yes. And Foreman back when he had a full head of hair was light years away from that first time around. A long, long way from that. Beside Jack Sharkey somewhere.

so the prior average being in the lower "overall percentile" for the day previous to winning the title for a second time is what you expected to see?

but thirteen back when there had only been 19 world champions is very, very low. It's like your okay That Foreman was in the lowest percentile. Your okay with that?

indeed.

 

No I think you expected Foreman to make top ten lists Before he cameback. He did not.

by regaining the title, Foreman only moved six places up the ATG lists according to who? Have you found a list that goes lower than 10 that included Foreman before he came back?

where are you getting six places from? You said he was probably about number 13 before he came back. Nobody else did. Where is that list? And even if Foreman registered this imaginary #13 on an ATG list in 1974 that would make him number 13 out of 19 champions meaning at best just six champions considered worse than prime George Foreman from all time, by your own reckoning. There's been over ten linear champions to add to that 19 so if Foreman remained six from the bottom (by your reckoning) that is an overwhelmingly low rating out of 29 if Foreman never came back.

But back when Foreman should have registered there had only been 19 world champions ever.

based on his total career perhaps. Would you rate Foreman on just his first career being above Gene Tunney?

The criteria is the first career whereby George did not register on any published ATG Top ten lists.

he did not register before his comeback.

he did not register before his comeback.

11-15 in 1974 is not where Foreman appears to be rated. I heard he was 6 from the bottom of one list during his retired years. It would be helpful to you if you can find a published list before 1985 that includes George Foreman As high as #11. I could see some logic from your suggestion if that were the case.

 

My perception is that Max Baer was likely to be ranked higher than George Foreman in those years.
Foreman was in the same ballpark as Johansson, Braddock, Sharkey, Willard.
Only Primo Carnera would be guaranteed to be below him and the story on Carnera generally was that he was a total fraud.

 

..... but lists do vary greatly.
And that was just my perception, based on very little. (there was simply a lot less to base this stuff on back then, due to infinitely less discussion of it.)

 

Unforgiven you are on the money.

 

That sounds like Foreman was roughly 6 places off the bottom before his comeback. Obviously, regaining the title (quite rightly) changed all of that, but I don't remember any outrage where Foreman should be rated before he came back.

 

I wish I could find the list.
It was actually a multi-page article and ratings were based on points out of 10 given in several categories, including skills, quality of opposition, footwork, historical impact, chin, punching power etc. etc.
I remember Ali, Louis, Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney were the top 5.

 

I used to buy all those bumper editions they used to do...Christ knows where they all went.

I vaguely remember that kind of thing a chart format if I remember rightly. What hurt Foreman was he showed incredible potential and scored high on power but there just was less to go on than most of the other champions up until that time. Nobody else retired so young. Perhaps ingo.

 

Foremans stock plummeted after being koed by Ali, the 15 month layoff, the debacle in Toronto, nearly being koed by Lyle and finally losing so badly to Young.....and then quitting!

One other aspect is that Foreman in those days was not a likable fellow. George retired and in many ways was forgotten. His name was never ever mentioned as an elite level hwt. That is until his remarkable comeback.

 

I completely agree ETM and am just pushing Perry on the fact that these two massive wins mean nothing (via Perry) with regards to Foreman being an ATG first career or basically barely even remembered. Ironically tho they made him numero uno historically as the greatest puncher ever, any weight :O

Seems a bit manufactured somewhere to me.

Foreman for sure was considered invincible by most. I believe he was an ATG certainly by the time Ali was done as champ. Ali's achievements and the awe he was then held in get Foreman there for me. The brighter Ali's star shone the better Foreman sat.