Which fight was the most historical significant?

Going with Jack Johnson's win though I find its historical significance, and (especially) that of Louis-Schmeling, to be dramatically overstated.

 

Joe Louis' win over Max Schmeling did more to boost the morale of more people and bring more races and nationalities of people together ... and reverberated across the world ... more than any fight Jack Johnson ever competed in.

After the Schmeling rematch, Joe Louis was a hero for black and white people for the next 40-plus years of his life. He actually opened doors for black athletes in all sports to be cheered and looked up to by all fans, regardless of color.

Jack Johnson, on the other hand, closed the door for black heavyweights, was run out of the country, sent to prison, and, upon his release, was essentially hated by and then ignored by whites AND BLACKS for the next 40 years of his life.

When Jack Johnson lost the title, black men weren't even allowed to fight for the heavyweight title for another 22 years ... not until Joe Louis did everything he could to show the boxing world he was nothing like Johnson.

Jack Johnson didn't open any doors for anyone else. He closed plenty, though.

On the other hand, when Joe Louis vacated the title ... TWO BLACK MEN fought for the vacant heavyweight title and were cheered by the thousands of whites in attendance.

Louis and his reign opened the door for that to happen. Jack Johnson didn't.

And none of that would've happened if Louis lost his title to Schmeling that night in 1938.

 

I buy the opening doors arguments. Louis played the game, Johnson didn't. Louis was humble before the media, Johnson wasn't. Louis banged Sonia Henie out of sight, Johnson flaunted his white ladies.

At the time, I am sure the Schmeling fight afforded itself as a great propaganda tool but I question how much impact it really had beyond that. Jim Crow was still King over much of the country. As far as the fight for Democracy, the still segregated armed forces were going to figh the rights of many voters (mostly looking like Louis) who were suppressed and gerrymandered. I don't know. Maybe I am just cynical but the narrative seemed awfully opportunistic, an event that was played up to be more historic than it truly was.

 

Considering the 2nd World war had already going on for a few years when the US only decided to join in after their hand was forced by Japan's surprise attack in 41 and Germany's subsequent declaration of war on them in support of their Japanese allies, it does make it harder to believe the the country as a whole, in 1938 had seen the Louis/Schemling fight as a fight for democracy and something as black and white (no pun intended) as democracy vs fascism. But like I said before, you probably had to be there at the time so I could be totally wrong here in my thinking.

 

I agree 100% with what you said here. I think the Johnson vs. Burns or Jeffries dwarfs the other 2 for historical significance imo

 

I think you're kind of missing the point here. It's not about what it changed at that moment, it's the undeniable change that happened in the consciousness of white America. Whether they admitted it or not, they now knew deep down, a black man was just as good of an athlete as a white man. Them not changing their actions or digging their feet in the ground further exemplifies said change. It's like a junior high boy hitting a girl... not cause he hates her but he actually like here. White America doing lynchings and not giving letting another black man fight for the title for many years after proves they point. It struck deep in their souls and was the birth of a change, a change that didn't happen right away, but as they say... "A change is a coming"

 

That revisionist writing though, at the time, the majority of the US didn't want to get involved in the conflicts of Europe. So was there some backdrop of Nazi's against Democracy, sure, but it wasn't what people make it out to be today.

 

Didn't FDR invite Louis to the whitehouse two weeks before the match?

 

Yes he did...

 

A closed door is as significant in historical terms as an open one...

 

Has boxing ever changed anything from, say, geopolitics to the AIDS epidemic to foul water at Flint, Michigan, USA? No. It's a sport.

But Louis-Schmeling II was its biggest international stage. Hell, the U.S. President and the German Chancellor had elevated the two fighters as symbols for democracy and fascism. This was no friendly sports bet between mayors. If the leaders of the world's two great powers took notice of the bout, it's BALONEY to say the rest of the world cared nothing about it.

Propaganda props were Louis and Schmeling for a global conflict. No other fight can top that. Period.

Also, the self-centered Galveston Giant was the first black heavyweight champion. But Joe Louis - in destroying Schmeling - became the first true black American hero. Thus, he paved the way for the Jackies, the Alis, the Jordans, all the great black athletes today. Even in this respect, the Louis door is much larger than the Johnson door.

It's Louis-Schmeling II, hands down.

 

Again, saying the Louis-Schmeling fight was fought on the biggest international stage is simply wrong. Why? Because America and Germany had a stake in it? Id argue that even Ali-Frazier 1 was fought a much larger international stage. But Burns-Johnson held racial supremacy in the balance, was a fight between a black man from the USA and a white man from Canada, fought in Australia after a literal worldwide chase of Burns by Johnson the results of which were sought in some of the most far flung places in the world. Again, how many people in India, China, Japan, Russia, Mexico, etc hung on the results of Louis-Schmeling? Not many. Whereas we know that news of the Johnson-Burns fight and the films of it were highly sought after in those places.

 

Because you read someone wanted to watch a film of the fight in those countries, you think it was in high demand there? You don't cite any numbers, just someone there wanted the film? Who saw it? How many boxing fans were there in India in 1908? Hell, how many are there now?

Joe Louis' share of the gate and film rights to Louis-Schmeling II was a little less than $600,000 (not including his $349,000 purse). How much money did Jack Johnson make on all those ticket and film sales in China and Japan and India you keep talking about? I'd love to hear a number.

Louis-Schmeling II was viewed by roughly 70,000 in the stadium that night. How many viewed the Johnson-Burns? More than 70,000? Not even close.

Louis-Schmeling II had a live radio audience in the United States of 70 million people. How many people in the U.S. listened to the Burns-Johnson fight live? Zero?

Louis-Schmeling II was broadcast via radio around the world live in English, German, Spanish and Portuguese ... to hundreds of millions of people ... and the live broadcast reached as far east as Prague and Warsaw, and there were huge numbers of listeners in South Africa and Central and South America. Italian newspapers reported Italy officially wouldn't carry the radio broadcast live, because Mussolini forbid it.

It was arguably the first, true LIVE global sporting event.

Compared to that, how many people outside Australia knew what the hell what was even going on during the Johnson-Burns fight?

Schmeling's wife listened to the radio broadcast of the Louis-Schmeling rematch in the home of Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister, surrounded by Nazi officials. Which government officials' homes were Burns and Johnson's (or Ali and Frazier's) wives at during the fight?

300,000 blacks in Harlem alone took to the streets and celebrated Louis' win that night. That's ONE city.

How many blacks in Harlem celebrated Jack Johnson's win over Burns that day? Any reports on that?

How many media representatives from around the world attended Johnson-Burns? More than 2,000 were distributed for Louis-Schmeling II to media "from all over the world."

You're arguing in favor of Burns-Johnson and claiming the WORLD was "gripped" by the prospect of a black U.S. fighter meeting a white "Canadian?" After Johnson WON, I'm quite certain people were curious to see it. And I totally believe you that more people were interested in seeing it than just typical heavyweight title fight. But that didn't make it a global event of such huge proportions that it had Presidents (or in Burns' case, Prime Ministers) inviting them to meet and had their wives in the homes of national leaders awaiting the results ...

It wasn't bigger or more historical than Louis-Schmeling II. Not by a longshot.

Side note: Every heavyweight boxing champion in attendance at the Louis-Schmeling rematch was introduced by the ring announcer to the crowd before the fight except for one ... Jack Johnson, who had bought his own ticket and was sitting there, hoping to take a bow. Johnson was still being ignored 30 years after you claimed he "opened all those doors."

Jack Johnson was largely reviled in his day, and he didn't become this figure of righteousness until the late 1960s ... decades after his death.

And Joe Louis and his team hated Jack Johnson and what he represented, because he'd closed doors to them, and Johnson hated Louis because Louis was the hero to people Johnson never was.

Louis-Schmeling II ... in every way ... globally, racially, idealogically ... was a bigger fight.

 

I would argue that this is not correct, that many blacks saw Johnson as a hero not only decades later (which in undeniable) but in his own time. I would also argue that the Johnson model of ascendancy, that being on his own terms and not carefully coached, is the model that has endured.

 

He was a hero to many blacks. But most black leaders and black papers soon felt he did nothing but hurt black people or their cause. And they weren't sad to see him flee the country.