If you'd have been in tyson s corner in Tokyo and foreman s in Zaire, how would u have had your respective men fighting Douglas and ali? Obviously both guys lost and for different reasons but what corners advice wouldu have been giving to try and change the outcome? Or iyo would these two have lost the fight s what ever tactics they employ?
Tyson's corner wouldn't be able to do anything to save him. Rather than partying he should have been training. As for Foreman, I would have told him to box Ali. He had trouble with good jabbers. Try and hook off the jab as he was also vulnerable to the left hook. Rather than trying to bomb him out and gassing.
Agreed with u on the tyson lack of training. But in a different scenario where tyson does decide to kick the partying and such,and trains his ass off where does that leave him against Douglas? Does a superbly fit tyson with different instructions against Douglas do better.? Some are of the opinion that Douglas would defeat tyson every time due to the style s make fight s scenario. So would buster beat tyson in 86 to 89 whatever and who ever is in tyson s corner?
That's a decent thread question. With Tyson he looked done in the Douglas fight Because he was underprepared. He was trying stuff but didn't have the energy to sustain the attacks. I know others don't go with that and think it was prime condition Tyson. The question then becomes what would you tell a conditioned Tyson to do against Douglas? Cause that would be a problem fight either way, you could see he had seen nothing like this before, the slick movement, power, jab, combination punching. It was a tall order for Mike. I guess you would ask him to maintain more pressure than he did in the actual fight, slip more and get on the inside. He proved he could hurt Douglas so more uppercuts once inside. Defiantly wasn't doing much at distance against this man. The foot work would be a major factor, getting quickly in and out. He would probably have to adapt a bit which is arguably something he couldn't have done. Douglas was the full package that night, I'd like to hear what anyone thinks regarding corner advice as well. With foreman it's widely regarded that he gassed himself, which makes you wonder about the actual advice given, didn't Archie Moore recognise what Ali was doing, read somewhere? You wonder what would have happened if foreman just became more measured, stepped back from Ali and became less anxious to get him out of there. which is the obvious answer. it seemed like foreman was mentally gone, the corner would have to have settled him down (if possible) and made him realise it was a distance fight and use the jab, back Ali up to rack up the points, as the short bursts from Ali wouldn't have been enough, on the ropes wouldn't win it. But George was so anxious wailing away at Ali with no control or plan. It makes you see that the corners would have had a tough time in those fights. Even with Forman, if he was given better advice Ali probably would have thought of something else. He was the guy to beat George in those days because he had the ability not to get rattled and think, he out thought foreman and his corner and probably always would.
Good point u made about the ali fight. If foreman goes in fighting a totally different style how does ali react, how does that change the pattern of the fight. Rumble was mainly about the rope - a dope so if foreman s not banging away and gassing then ali has to adjust also. But perhaps not as effective as using the rope dope.
yeah, its easy to look back on the rope a dope and take it for granted but the fact Ali even had the ability to do it shows you something. the pure brass balls to even try that against foreman, who else in that day would even conceive of taking shots from the most dangerous puncher in that era? that kind of mind isn't easily beaten I dont think. Ali had the speed to counter Foreman as well which was another factor, the right hand leads, and who knows, maybe those discombobulated (spell check) Foreman enough to get him off his game as well and would again. George was mentally anxious and rattled while Ali was thinking of ideas is the point. Anything George did would probably have been counted with a mind like Ali's. I think that is a major thing that made him the greatest, being able to think on the spot, the quick mind. its like in life, those with the quick mind tend to always be one step ahead however hard you work and wail away, and Ali was always one step ahead.
Tyson wouldnt have won that fight with anyone in the corner, he was not prepared for a tough fight. Same with foreman. The tools they brought in the ring that night would not have been enough either way. I think Douglas would have been very winnable for tyson if he had sparred enough and taken douglas seriously but foreman would always have had trouble because even before ali planted himself on the ropes he was beating george to the punch in the middle of the ring. Foreman was maybe the heaviest puncher in HW history but he didnt have the handspeed and technique to KO you with one shot out of the blue that you didnt see, even against moorer he had moorer out on his feet before he finished him. Ali had a better chin than moorer.
I definitely don't buy in to the Douglas hype of Tokyo. That myth that that version of Douglas would be any heavy on that day. He fought the best fight of his life and good on him. But a differently trained and motivated tyson would have beat buster I'm sure of it. It s didn't help his corner didn't have a clue. It was a circus in Tokyo. Of course tyson him self has to do the fighting but a decent, calm corner can make all the difference.
I agree that Tyson would have beat Buster if he was prepared... He still had the tools to beat Douglas. All he needed was to be prepared. He would take more shots than when he was in the D'Amato camp but he could still pull off the win. In my mind, the only way Foreman would have won is if he had a motivating corner (e.g. Cus D'Amato with his psychological knowledge) and they were encouraging him to box. But Ali would have movement and Foreman would be following him around all night. Foreman was good at cutting the ring down, although once cornered Ali may unleash a flurry scoring points. In this situation I don't see Foreman winning but I also don't see him getting knocked out.
I see it the same regarding a cus type figure. Some one George would take notice of, to keep him focused and calm.
Ali would have probably still out scored him like u say but if foreman had the discipline to keep level headed then perhaps he takes him the distance. Zaire foreman was never getting past the tenth the way he was blasting away.
One option that Tyson had in hindsight was simply not to take the Douglas fight. Douglas was ranked #7 at the time, and nobody would have criticised Tyson for selecting somebody else.
Good post. The best 'seventies version' of Ali (1972-74,imo) would always have had the beating of George. Just as George would always have beaten the best Frazier and the best Frazier would always have edged out the best seventies incarnation of Ali.
