I think it is a bit creepy that Together Sonny Liston, Zora Foley and Eddie Machen were at one time the best heavyweights in the world and later they all died about the same time, each under as questionable circumstances as each other.
Its the curse of the heavyweight s chok. Quite a few few heavy s champs and contenders have died young.
The 80s were the decade were my favourite decade and from that the heavyweight champions already gone are John Tate, Trevor Berbick, Greg Page and Michael Dokes as well as some well known contenders like Alex Stewart and Carl Williams. Really we shouldn't be that surprised that some boxing champions died relatively young. They are no different than anyone else in society but it still seems sad when it happens.
Theres no controversy about Liston - Ali II, Sonny Liston threw that fight like a paper cup into the trash. Watch the tape , Ali screamed at him , he knew what was up. Sonny played like he was getting up and when he realized Walcott hadn't started counting he flopped onto his back. Worst acting job since Arnold Swarzeneggar . Why? who knows? maybe he didn't want to be beaten up again, or made some money. A story from St Louis illustrated how Sonny wasn't hurt by that tap, in his criminal days Sonny was fighting a cop when another one approached and cracked Sonny over the head with a wooden nightstick. Sonny turned around and put the cop in the hospital, and as Jimmy Lennon at ringside said,,," that punch wouldn't have bust a grape".
I don't think Jimmy Lennon ever hit anyone. Who was he to judge? Why should his opinion outrank anyone else? Just as many ringsiders rated that punch compared to those who missed it or regarded it as bogus. Larry Merchant for one. He rated it. And Nobody can say the punch did not land. Film shows it made enough contact to turn SOnnys head. Once Sonny wet over, Walcott, Nat Fleischer and Ali and their crazy antics were enough to ruin that result since Sonny never got a count! Why get up if nobody counted? Then when Sonny got up Walcott stopped him anyway!
That's a heck of a lot of death s there, in the 80 s just alone ken. Like u say it's sad, especially when you've watched em over the years. I remember something about Carl Williams dying of cancer, and he'd actually been a security guard for some of the buildings near ground zero after 9/11. He used to patrol around the offices and such, and I believe him breathing in the particles floating around in air caused this cancer. I'm not sure how true this is but very sad either way.
In the case of Zora Foley, Eddie Machen and Sonny Liston I would not be surprised if they were victims of mafia hits. Each of them might have had enough dirt on them to bring down heavy players from the crime saturated 1950s boxing scene. Jim Norris, Marciano, Al Weil and Allie Colombo also died that kind of time too. Cus Damato lived In fear of being hit, And everyone said he was just paranoid!
It certainly makes u think chock, when u put it like that. And cus may have had good reason to be paranoid. I read some where he used to sleep with his bed up against the door, and always with a big dog in the room with him! I believe he pissed a few big guys off when they wanted a piece of his fighters and he told em to do one. Boxing was rife with shady guys back then. Cus was a interesting fella in a lot of ways.
Liston got caught clean, totally didn't see the punch. It legitimately knocked him down. Now the way he put his arms out as he fell leads me to believe it was a flash knockdown. For whatever reason he chose not to get back up right away. He got up eventually but the fight was waved off. Ali acting foolish and Walcott being in over his head really make a mess of the whole situation.
U know, it makes me wonder what would have happened with another ref in there. Not sure how much experience Jersey had as the third man, but the poor guy was all over the place. Put another ref in, he grabs Ali and marches him back to the corner. Then he gives liston a proper count, then waves em back in. Either liston gets back in to the fight or ali stops him, depending on how genuine the kd was.
Yes I agree. A flash knockdown still requires a count and Sonny never got one. I can't help thinking Ali just had Sonnys number regardless. He was on fire. Sonny turned up as he was contracted to. I often wonder how many ex champions really wanted to go through with the rematch clause? How many were even asked? Surely many would benefit from a break followed by a rebuilding comeback rather than going straight back into the ring against the guy who just knocked them out. Think of poor BoBo Olson against Robinson or Patterson against Liston. Walcott with Marciano too. A lot of times the same thing was destined to happen again and the ex champ would have known it too a lot of the time no matter what they said to the press to help with the promotion. I get the impression that even if Sonny never wanted to see Ali again he still would have been forced into that ring. Is it a fix if the other guy just turns up without really wanting to be there? I don't think so. The guy still contracted to get an excellent purse. Also, if the opportunity presented itself it is always a fighters instinct to go for it. Had Ali made a mistake Sonny would still have responded. He would have been able to help himself. In that way, I don't think a champion could truly throw a fight if he wanted to. I think of Witherspoon versus Smith. Tims mind was all over the place, he didn't appear ready to fight that evening, yet Spoon still decked Smith briefly during the pounding he received. It was still in his nature to lash out if he wanted to or not. Throwing a fight at that level deliberately like in the movies, the biggest championship, I just cant see it. I really can't. But it makes for a great story. People want to believe it.
This is what we needed. This would have cleared it up. We would not have missed an acceptable conclusion. I think had that happened, Sonny would have been legitimately stopped on those ropes like Brian London. I really think history was robbed of a really good clinical stoppage. It was only the nature of the key stone cops farce element created by Walcott, fleicher and Ali skipping around like a loon that created the stink. it's just like any legitimate fight apart from that. The whole thing is embarrassing more than anything.
Not really. I don't think anything has changed. Championship fights have always been too high profile. Before MMA the spotlight was forever on big time boxing and a great deal of the big players who would benefit from fixed fights were more determined than they are now to present boxing as an acceptable sport. Fixes went on down the card. Mostly between boxers themselves. Actually today you could argue that there are more "fixes" than ever as quite often a show is made up entirely of house fighters versus "professional losers". People still argue now about if Dempsey doctored his gloves against Willard or not where as now it's common knowledge that many champions are drugs cheats. Nobody cares.