The Rings Top 20 2017 All Time Heavyweights!

We have to consider Jeffries active until May of 1905.

At the time that he retired, Johnson had cleaned out the division, and Hart had a win over Johnson, so it would be fair to say that Johnson and Hart were the two best remaining heavyweights.

Hart obviously loses to Burns in 06.

In practice I suspect that Sam McVea was the best heavyweight apart from Johnson himself, from about 1906 until Langford surpassed him around 1908.

Perhaps we have to give Burns the benefit of the doubt given his win over Hart.

 

There is a major difference between facts and an agenda Janitor.

If you disagree with any facts I provided here, your a perfect gentleman and I will treat you as such during a debate.

The opportunity is since I respect you, you have a chance to find some middle ground with me on the topic.

So I hope you don't opt out!

On Johnson I think he had good reflexes, his jab was good enough to be mentioned in my top 15 heavyweight jabbers. I also think he had nice punch anticipation, good strength to clinch and lock opponents down and a very sneaky & good uppercut. So you see I can be objective on him.


>>>Even the biggest Johnson backer here in the poster Mcvey admits Johnson title run was a weak one and to paraphrase him his style makes " his **** boil "

If you want to debate the points in my above posts, I'll be all eyes and ears.

-M

Point made on Johnson run from 1902-1914 on who he defeated:


1 ) a 156 pound 20 year old Sam Langford, * weights and age are estimates *
2 ) A teenage Sam McVey
3 ) A very green and raw notice in Jeannette who sometimes had a losing record.
4 ) A decently skilled, but soft bodied and chined Martin.
5 ) 5'7" 168 Tommy Burns, for the title.
6 ) A decent, but not great " white hope " in Moran. Surviving films show a close match.
7 ) An over weight, old and in-active Jeffries
8 ) Flynn, though ringside observers wonder what would have happened in later rounds if not DQ'd

Draws to O'Brien, and Jim " Battling " Johnson take luster off of Johnson's championship star, as does being knocked down by blown up middle weight Ketchel. Could you imagine if something like this happened in modern history? The heavyweight champion would be ridiculed.

Sorry, while I agree it was a long run, I also want to communicate its not a very impressive run. Not one of the above men in their state of condition WHEN Johnson fought them would be in the top 5 today.

 

It's quite possible that Johnson is always going to be an historical figure of Heavyweight Boxing, who will float up and down in the positions of one ATG list to another. But, there's certainly enough in his life, times and record to warrant him being talked about seriously; with respect, in such conversations.

 

Do I really need to rip these excuses apart again? Okay, quickly just for you

1 ) Since you like Adam Pollack, why don't you get his take on the Marvin Hart vs Jack Johnson match? BOOM. Hart who was nothing special, yet he won the high-stakes match through activity! Even Johnson's own corner said pick up the pace!

2 ) The author of the book on Langford who posts here said 20 years old and he was likely under 160 pounds! Who are you to say different?

3 ) Joe Jeannette had no amateur career and sometimes a losing record vs Johnson.

0-3 in the first fight, and barely above .500 in the others, as stated!

4 ) Ed Martin has SIX early KO's on his record, and could not take a punch. Glass body & Glass jaw. Also, Jeffries was listed by the press according to those who researched his career with a KO over win over Martin.

5 ) Burns was under his optional weight. Box rec says 168 pounds, as I as told you a top black historian and a book on Tommy Burns says he was suffering from jaundice like symptoms.

6 ) I judge the films, and what has left in many shows many close rounds. Try watching it sometime and I even score the footage with you. Moran did not get a dime for this fight and almost quit after Johnson hit on the break, which is on film.

7 ) Jeffries at 227 was lighter than three of his title defenses? Poor information & wrong again! SHOW ME THIS.

8 ) The poster Senya who does far more research than you listed several at ringside who felt otherwise. It's a case of heads I win, tails I lose with you, yet you'll bit@h about the ref with Hart, but not vs Flynn, where Johnson was doing a lot of holding?

9 ) In the 6 round match, many some primary sources say, O'Brien, estimated at 160 pounds was the better. Stop with the spin... They fought, and the results were just that.

10 ) There is a dispute as to when the injury happen, I can show you a report that many felt it happened in the last round. Furthermore, Battling Jim had one judge side with him as the WINNER, not one Judge felt Johnson won!

11 ) Sure you believe the knockdown was a fake! LOL, what other of Johnson wins were pre-arranged or fixed? I ask you this and you duck the question all the time! The guy is a liar about his career, and you know it.

12 ) Smith knocked Johnson silly to the point where his manager had to stop the action. How is GB Smith too small to get a fight with Johnson, when he's bigger than Burns, Ketchel, and Flynn? Also if you look at who he beat, he was most certainly worthy of a match for a few years. Later in life Smith said and he never forgot it, referring to the punch that floored him.

13 ) McVey was a teenager in two matches and just 20 in the third. Green, young and raw. Big deal. He also quit boxing after he lost to Martin for a year.

14 ) A number of promoters tried to make matches with bigger name fighters saw Johnson either pulling out of a signed contract ( With Langford in 1909 ) or coming up with the coffee of the month excuses are many.

Simply stated would any great heavyweight champion need your excuses vs .the same opposition when Johnson fought them? If so, lost them please.

IMO any great heavyweight champion smashes these jokers Johnson fought, and beats them more conclusively. Furthermore he would and not break signed contracts. And he would be booed if he kept avoiding the 3-4 best out there to fight.

 

You can spin or selectively quote the truth to give any impression.

In your case you always try to portray Johnson in the most negative light possible.

So while the things that you have said may not be strictly untrue, neither do they give a fair and balanced picture of Johnson's career.

You say that I have a chance to try to find some middle ground, but I don't think that there is any middle ground with you on this issue.

 

Okay, I guess you missed the compliments side of what I said regarding Johnson! But ring results, the condition and experience levels of the opponents he fought, and the obvious names he avoided as champion are facts that need zero spin. They are what they are.

 

So, again, do these results when viewed as 'heavyweight victories' really constitute a ranking of NUMBER 3 all time?

How long would Tommy Burns, surely among Johnson's top 3 victories, last against Liston's Cleveland Williams, Holme's Carl Williams, Waldo's Povetkin, Frazier's Quarry, Foreman's Moorer... or any of many of the the other less than very best defenses of the guys ranked below Johnson. It's positively hilarious.

 

So says a guy who has had multiple issues with other posters, makes multiple mistakes, hardly watches films, and one who has been banned for rule bending at ESB.

Simply stated, If I said how would Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, or Rocky Marciano do with the same opposition when Johnson fought them, the reply would be they would ripe them to pieces. Anyone here would say that. Yet Johnson lost, struggled in victory at times, needs excuses, does not look as good on film, etc...

Now comes the part where a 60+ year old man will need to act like a baby and get in the last word.

 

It's more than hilarious. When someone has to go ad hominem on you and can't / or won't debate known facts about the ring record, or video, well, they have to be a misty-eyed boxing fan.

Fans of some heavyweight champions before or after can say, yeah but my guy has KO power, or beat better fighters, etc... Neither really apply to Johnson.

Like I said the list produced here is more like the most famous heavyweight champions of all time.