Sonny Listons career without Ali

Probably would have stayed champion to the late 60's. If Clay wasn't around, Jones, Cooper, Terrel and Chuvalo would have been his most logical contenders in 64-65. I don't see anyone of them upsetting him. More probably Quarry or Ellis in the late 60's. Frazier would be more stylistically vulnerable, but could outhustle an old Liston. Or Liston retires in say 1966.

 

It's a good question,clouded by the fact that Sonny was not the most diligent of trainers,had he remained in shape I think he would have retained the title until 67 and ,due to styles may well have been able to stop the then rising Frazier so he could have realistically added another 3/4 years to his reign imo.
A more salient question might be, how long could he have reigned had he received a title shot against Floyd in 60 when he obviously deserved it? His wins over Williams ,Folley, Machen ,Harris, King could well have been title defences and his subsequent all time standing would be significantly enhanced. imo.

 

I think that he was heading for a fall personally.

He was not training with any professionalism, and a James Douglas figure would have emerged from somewhere.

 

Had he kept his focus and trained accordingly ,who would have beaten him before 1967 at the earliest? I say no one.

 

Yes but he didn't.

He was an upset waiting to happen.

 

Oh sure.

 

That is a bridge too far,imo

 

Except for against arguably the greatest HW ever that upset waited to happen until 1969. There just isn't much basis for this whole "upset waiting to happen thing". Yeah, you can probably find quotes from after the fact, but I don't think any of those people put any money on it. If so they would have made a nice penny. Liston was even a favorite for the rematch. So for people at the time he certainly wasn't an accident waiting to happen. But talking afterwards is always easy...

 

Liston’s training habits before the Ali fight, and indeed before the second Patterson fight, are very well documented.

It was not just a case of explaining things away after the upset.

As for the betting odds, the aura surrounding Liston at the time, was such that he would have been picked over a T rex.

 

It is not unthinkable that he could have beaten Ali if he had got his act together.

Ali still had a bit to learn at the time IMHO.

At least it wouldn’t have hurt to try!

 

Where are they documented before the actual fights?

 

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