That is quite a high standard to hold me to, though I can look and see what is there. There is certainly a huge amount of evidence from contemporary observers, which has come to light since the fights, and they are different people telling the same story.
Tony Galento proves an unlikley prophet in an interview with by Jack Cuddy. Tony Galento, Sonny Liston looks like he's 40 years old. I know some fellows that knew about him from back in the late 1940's, when he was a 27 year-old trouble-maker in St. Louis. That man is not 30, he's got that old man look now. And if he doesn't watch out, he'll be hanging out in this Coffee Shop with me after his fight with Clay, asking me what the hell happened. I think that Clay is a helluva fighter. I'm glad they postponed the bout {September 23, 1963} until next year. Give Clay enough time to get more strength, and let Sonny get a little older. I'm telling you, Clay will not only beat him, but maybe knock him out. Jack Cuddy, 'Are you serious Tony'. Tony Galento, 'Sure I'm serious. Clay will beat Liston for sure when they fight next year'. Jack Cuddy, 'Are you saying that Sonny Liston is a bum'. Tony Galento, 'No, I'm not saying that. But Joe Louis would have beaten him 9 out of 10 times. Jack Cuddy, 'But this is Sonny Liston, a real puncher. He can break bones'. Tony Galento, 'This Clay kid is cunning, a real Ring General.' Jack Cuddy, 'Clay is just a boxer, a runner with only a left jab.' Tony Galento, 'This kid has a mule-kick' of a punch too, don't kid yourself.' Jack Cuddy, 'But Sonny is strong, and has never been hurt.' Tony Galento, 'Sure, Sonny is a burly sort, but he's slow and his punching power is blown way out of proportion.' Jack Cuddy, 'But Sonny has only lost once, and that was years ago. And Clay is unproven.' Tony Galento, 'I'm telling you, Clay has the same equipment as Gene Tunney, and look what he did to Jack Dempsey.'
I agree with this. After his "nothing" reception he hit the booze hard. He would have lost the title to prison or injury or a Buster type sooner rather than later probably.
So they bet on Clay, of course? At the very least for the rematch? This is dime a dozen for me, so I don't put much stock in it. Especially if it's a "badass" - like Liston, Duran or Tyson. For some reason it's never clear at the time but always afterwards that they were an accident waiting to happen. Well, I can readily imagine that Liston didn't put in his A effort in training before either the Floyd rematch or Clay because he was so confident of winning. But this "accident to happen" talk, sounds a lot like excuses to me. Oh, and the sources (Dundee among them) that say Ali was lax in training before FOTC. What stock do you put in that?
Galento sure knew what he was talking about....I wonder if he bet on Liston-Clay I. Would have made a bundle.
Maybe someone from the Olympic program of 1964, and was not really afraid of Liston. Buster Mathis? but could he last 15 rounds?
"I think that Clay is a helluva fighter. I'm glad they postponed the bout {September 23, 1963} until next year." (Henry Cooper vs CClay was June 13, 1963) I don't remember Clay vs Liston I being postponed to early 1964. I do know Ali vs Liston 2 was postponed 6 months to May 25, 1965. The Ali vs Liston 2 was set for November 16, 1964, at the Boston Garden, Ali needed emergency surgery for a strangulated hernia. The bout would need to be delayed by six months. The new date was set for May 25, 1965 in Lewiston, Maine.
Liston was a potential Pryor. A disaster awaiting to happen. If journeyman Bobby Joe Young could ko Pryor then a fighter on his game during Liston reign could potentially do the same .
He remains champ for a few years, if he remains focused and fit. But a young frazier takes it to him in 68 and stops him. Frazier to hungry for liston by then and stops him mid way, despite suffering a kd or two.
Desire and momentum are key factors with any champion. But it's all about sustaining that momentum and desire and getting the opportunity to create a great run of fights. Some champions are groomed to perfection landing the right number of learning fights without sustaining real wear and tear to create a progression into big time boxing. Others have managerial problems, bad match making, insufficient backing, or outside problems that prevent all of this even if there is the sufficient investment. No matter how much talent any champion has, these factors can prevent potential being realised. The record shows Sonny had a stop start career. It certainly doesn't show he could sustain momentum at elite level beyond a handful of fights. Altogether he started his career from scratch three times. Twice he had to start over. 1960 to 1962 he was a great fighter but he had actually already been around on and off for ten years by then. Two years is not much. I think he had ran out of time. Now we can look at Sonny and say he could have dominated for ten years, but nobody actually has. The longevity shown by many great fighters is helped in some part with breaks from the sport. Joe Louis had a break during the war years. Ali had an exile. Tyson had prison. In truth seven good consecutive active years of domination is all any champion has shown. And even that has been shown to be hard to sustain. Lewis failed. Tyson failed. Great fighters dominating more than a couple of years is pretty rare. Sonny was a talent, the fact that when he returned to America in 1968 Proved he actually recorded some excellent wins in 1968 but the effort that required soon petered out. You only get so many good years. Sonny had, like any champion, real limitations restricting how far he could spread his talent. He was human.
I think an old Liston vs Young Frazier match was proposed in the late 60's......but Yank Durham, Joe's "manager", was wary of that fight at that time. Floyd Patterson was also proposed, and would have fought Joe, if Floyd had won the Ellis Title fight (on the cards).