Does A Prime Marciano Beat The Joshua Of Today?

Notwithstanding some of the recent Carnera revisionism that has taken hold in this forum, the footage shows that the top super heavies have come a long way since the first half of the twentieth century.

 

Anything that is asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

Or do you hold this statement to be so obvious that no evidence it’s required?

 

What kind of additional evidence do you need? We've already seen plenty of clips that reveal the shortcomings of guys like Carnera and Willard. Do you want me to find and repost some? Maybe throw in a few new ones?

 

That's an opinion and not a fact my freind.

and yet film of Willard and Carnera and other tall men do not show the vast lack of skills we have been led to believe. In fact from what I have seen most of them could walk into the division right now and fit right in.

I think they often could not cut it against the 190lb guys usually because it was often thought they could make up for experience with size and were often rushed into big fights without learning the game. Others like Buddy Baer and Primo had a lot of fights and were creditable and deserving world class men.

skill in boxing was never more evident than in the golden era of boxing 1930s -1970, I don't think technical skill has ever been surpassed since then. America always produced more giant sized men. American people were always taller than Europeans. Over all height in the US topped out in the 1960s. There are no more tall people in America than there ever was since the 1960s. The rest of the world has grown considerably to match US ratios of tall people but the truth is, so far as boxing goes, trainers traditionally did not scout for giant Boxers because there used to be limits on what could be achieved with them before steroids and changes in the rules began to favour that sized athletes.

why do you think the skill dropped off? Is it because the older trainers died off and there was more emphasis on power, size, artificial weight than technique?

unlikely is better than impossible. Exceptional champions can sometimes be an exception to the rule can't they? I hate to keep mentioning Carnera, but established logic out there is that Primo can't beat Dempsey or Marciano. Joshua must first pull away from at least Carneras legacy of never losing to a guy his own size before he can be awarded that kind of certainty surely?

I congratulate you on this logic but I feel the modern conditions of boxing stack too many odds against the classic sized heavyweights to prevent it from becoming more of a factor in the present. The refreshing change in the Joshua fight was the way Wlad stopped holding. Hopefully this trend will be enforced in the future. Whoever convinced him before the fight not to attempt to hold or maul as much as usual deserves full recognition and gratitude here!

David Haye and Holyfield beat a lot of SHW guys between them but both got stopped and dropped by former lightheavyweights in Toney and Belew.

 

I need you to give a clear description of how the technique of bigger heavyweights has improved, supported by footage.

Then I need you to tell me why those improvements are likely to make a decisive difference.

 

Watch Valuev Vs Lyakhovic and try telling me that he's less skilled than Primo and Willard.

 

I don't think Nikolay Valuev is the best example. But I definitely think that men such as Wladmir, Vitali, Bowe, Lewis, Joshua and Fury are more skilled than Carnera and Willard. Particularly Jess. Looking at how he kept his guard at practically waste line levels is something that no one has done in decades.

 

He is the best example because he was able to reach a very high level and his weaknesses were exploited by much smaller men.

But still, if the footage of his we're using as a comparison tool is the footage against Lyakhovic there's no prescription 80's SHW who looks superior. Valuev, despite being very limited, looks incredible in this fight. But we still know old man Holyfield came very close to beating him.

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There is skilled, there is effective, and then there is good clear film at the right speed.

All these SHW guys IMO could compete together now and nobody would look out of their depth. They are all comparable. Because effective is effective.

We can no longer say one era is any better than the other.

 

Carneras "biography" in Boxiana does need revising. It's full of crap.
His best KO on film was considered and invisible punch by the Kellerman of the day.

 

Valuev was slow, non aggressive and very limited in skill. If I were to create an argument harboring that super heavys of today were better than the Carneras and Wilards of yesteryear, I would use some of the other SHW's that I listed and in truth they would more than suffice.

 

Why is Valuev not sticking his glove out and squishing the other guy?
His frame is twice as big. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

If he carrying him to earn a % of the movie rights like Johnson?
Is he mob backed like Primo?
What's going on here?!

/s

 

Yes, valuev is right up there with Carnera. All the SHW are comparable

 

Not all comparable. Bowe, Vitali, Wlad, Lewis, Foreman. That's a higher echelon of fighters than Valuev, Briggs, Carnera and Willard.

 

Calling Carnera reliant on size and unskilled,
and then saying the opposite of guys like Lewis, Fury, and Douglas, is dumb imo.