Rate their chins. Marciano, foreman or holmes?

Very good post.

 

Marciano speaking to British writer Peter Wilson about his going to the ropes said that when he got up at the count of 4, he was expecting the 8 count.Here is his explanation
"Ah but you've forgotten that in America there is a compulsory count of eight and even if you get up ,the referee still continues the count up to eight before letting the fight continue",Wilson replied ."Yes I know all about that, but you don't have that in world championship fights". "No you don't understand.We have the compulsory count.
"And then he paused and he said": Gosh ,of course you're right.It doesn't work in world championship fights."
The referee also forgot the compulsory count did not apply and gave Rocky a count of 5 before realising his mistake.Moore undoubtedly overegged the pudding a bit ,he said the ref gave Marciano's gloves a little shake to pull him to.
Marciano said he blacked out for some seconds, the Walcott kd always looked the more heavier punch to me but Rocky disagreed ,and he took the punches.

 

Yes, And I felt he lost that one to be honest. His face was a mess. But Foreman wasn't cranked by Tommy Morrison. Tommy went in there to box and move on that night not slug.

Foreman was hit sold by Holyfield ( and rocked, I think mid round 6? ), and also on ***** street from a journeyman on Tuesday night fights ( remember them! ) named Ken Lakusta, who to be kind wasn't very good.

-M

 

I want to start out by saying that I rate Foreman higher and think you are a good poster.

But you must admit Foreman never had good stamina. Being in good shape in the later rounds is part of having a good chin. In rounds 1-6, maybe Foreman had a better chin, but not in the later rounds, sorry.

Ali as a puncher was similar in power to Walcott, and he did his best worth with the right hand later in fights ( Omit the Liston dive please ) when his men were tried. Ali was a counter puncher, who knew when and where to fire his best weapon.

I would say Moore was very accurate, and Walcott had power with his hook, and could land it unexpectedly...as they say when you don't see it coming that's the one that can get you.

So Marciano's chin was tested by accurate punchers with some pop. Not by the same class of punchers who meet Foreman for the most part, but I think George was rocked easier ( Holyfield and Lakusta fights ), pun intended

-M

 

It doesn't matter if he was dehydrated or not. He wouldn't spontaneously not gas in other fantasy match ups. If he couldn't take a punch at any point in the fight then it counts against him. While Foreman wasn't gassed he had a terrific chin. When he gassed he didn't. Simple as that. If you reread my post closely you will see that I said Foreman's chin was fantastic.

He couldn't stopped Patterson because Patterson was the better Heavyweight. It doesn't come down to "who punches harder" and "who has the better chin". If that were the case than David Tua would have knocked Byrd clean out.

The highlighted part makes absolutely no sense. We are talking about chins here. You are putting forth a straw man argument there. Size doesn't determine punching power. Plenty of 190-200 lbrs from history hit harder than many of the super heavies in the top 10 today.

You don't know anything about the fights you bring up. Sure, Walcott was beating Rocky, that's about it. In the Charles and Moore fights Marciano looked utterly dominating. Don't even try to debate that one because the film tells all. Next time try watching the fights not going by what some 13 year old nerd has to say on yahoo answers.

Again, this isn't about h2h match ups. This is about chins.

 

I watched an interview the other day. Before this thread popped up. Moore said the ref put his ass in front of him so he couldn't get to Marciano and made it sound like Marciano had all kinds of time to recover, including a standing 8 count I think. I had to rewatch the kd just to be sure.

Marciano was pretty smart after he got up. Moore tried to step in and finish it but Marciano weathered the storm and managed to get in a couple punches while Moore was trying to bomb him out.

 

imo. Foreman's problem was one of pacing not stamina ,in his reincarnation he never even used his stool, standing between rounds
Foreman retired at what 28? He scaled 229lbs for his last fight .He came back 10 years later and 40lbs heavier do you think his stamina had improved?
Of course it hadn't! He had simply learned the secret of how to pace himself !

 

I want to start out by saying that I rate Foreman higher and think you are a good poster.

But you must admit Foreman never had good stamina. Being in good shape in the later rounds is part of having a good chin. In rounds 1-6, maybe Foreman had a better chin, but not in the later rounds, sorry.

Ali as a puncher was similar in power to Walcott, and he did his best worth with the right hand later in fights ( Omit the Liston dive please ) when his men were tried. Ali was a counter puncher, who knew when and where to fire his best weapon.

I would say Moore was very accurate, and Walcott had power with his hook, and could land it unexpectedly...as they say when you don't see it coming that's the one that can get you.

So Marciano's chin was tested by accurate punchers with some pop. Not by the same class of punchers who meet Foreman for the most part, but I think George was rocked easier ( Holyfield and Lakusta fights ), pun intended

Foreman didn't have good stamina in his prime. He was dead tired with Ali well before the KO, you can see his blows lacked steam. Compare and contrast to Joe Fraizer or Kenny Norton who kept firing all night vs. Ali, they had good stamina. Foreman did not,

In one of his fights that went the distance ( could have been the 1st Peralta fight ), Foreman asked his corner what round it was. They were off by a round, and he went berserk. Sandy Saddler told him it was round 10, when it was round 9, and Foreman almost gassed himself. I already mentioned he was dead tired vs. the light punching Jimmy Young.

In his second career, Foreman cherry picked the slow and easy for the most part, and used his jab to pace himself a bit more. He did not throw a lot of punches either. Older and wiser, he knew.

 

This just confirms what I said! Foreman came out like gangbusters against Ali throwing huge hooks with both hands.He had never had to pace himself because nearly everyone folded early.Foreman made the fight against Young bouncing unnecessarily on his toes to try and prove a point ,the freak humidity got to him.

 

1-thats an assumption on your part. Foreman overtrained, cut weight, and was dehydrated trying to prove he could go the distance due to his critics and also because of don king. King told him he wanted to get the ads going. He didnt gas against peralta. It was the way he paced himself. He realized his mistake letting young off the hook and desperately tried to finisg him, i think it was the 8th or 9th, and looked terrible the rest of the night.

2-size doesnt determine punching power? Does thurman hit harder than kovalev? Have a seat. Youve clearly never sparred or fought before sayig some dumb **** like that. There can be a big difference in power within the weight class (byrd vs shavers) but when theres a 40-60 pound difference between someone like walcott and wladmir its pretty damn obvious.

3-i saw the moore and charles fights. I stand by what i said. Charles ripping open rockys nose is one of the most famous incidents in his career. Many refs could have stopped it. If this is news to you then you must not be as big of a fan if his as you claim.

 

Everyone keeps bringing up lakusta but he was in his 40's and...he didnt go down. Everyone has an off night, especially when theyre old enough to have grandkids. Anyone can be wobbled by a punch they dont see coming.

 

Chin and stamina are two different things. I was never hurt or even buzzed by a feather fisted opponent no matter how out of shape or tired i was. This is true for all fighters with good chins, ali, chuvalo, holmes, etc.

Algieri and khan have great stamina and always show up in shape. Their chins betray them regardless.

In foremans case i already explained. He punched himself out against young and was off balance. Flash knockdown. He had no respect for youngs counter punching sharpness.

Are you saying foreman was rocked easier relative to people his own size compared to rocky or just in general? That had more to do with his reckless no defense style either way. Evem rocky was more responsible when hurt.

 

Not at all. Frazier and Norton had good stamina, they could fire all day on Ali. They did not have pacing issues at all.

Foreman was gassed and his punches lacked steam as early as round six vs Ali. If this was the only film on Foreman, people would not rather highly 20 years from now.

Humidity and heat is something both fighters have to deal with, Foreman just wasn't made for marathons or the later rounds in general.