Better All-Around Fighter: Primo Carnera or Riddick Bowe?

damn, Janitor schooled you

 

No I originally posted all of Louis' quote. Don't try to tar me with your brush!
Here's Gene Tunney's opinion of Carnera after watching him against Tommy Loughran, and the next day after being ringside to watch him lose his title to Max Baer.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ub5aAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qVQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3949,2367707&hl
Tunney says Carnera has a vulnerable chin,and extremely limited boxing equipment, that he cannot hit, and falls apart when his defences are breached.

 

And, the meltdown continues...

 

It's so weird, there are so many more boxers that are underrated that actually had better skills than Primo that people could get behind. I just don't understand the fervor over Primo. Was he the worst boxer the world has ever known, no, was he one of the weakest HW Champs ever, unquestionably yes.

 

I'm assuming most of those people you are thinking of weren't lineal HW champions. So it makes sense to me that someone at that level, whether consciously or subconsciously, takes precedent.

 

But how do you assess him among the SHW champions? Overall he is low in the ATG Heavyweight rankings but restricted to 240lb guys he's pretty high. Restricted to SHW Only Lewis and wlad have a better resume than Primo.

 

I don't separate them though. I can have a conversation with Lewis and Louis opposing each other. I don't separate them into two completely different categories. Primo is unquestionably one of the worst HW champs. That is just simply how it is. Sure, being a lineal champ an all he gets some props, and he's in a very select group, but within that group he's one of the worst. Even people not in the group we can see had better skills. I just don't get why this is dragged on so long. As I said, there are plenty of more worthy people to get behind that Primo imo

 

I agree that there are many lineal HW champs who were much better than Primo.
And probably many boxers who had more skill. But as effective?

I think there are plenty of guys who look more skilled than Vitali, but who weren't nearly as effective.
I think SHWs have a harder time looking good.

 

Tunney is an expert, but no more so than Max Schmeling.
Max was making an overall assessment on Primo after his Career and here we have Tunney commenting on just a losing fight. I am sure Gene would be just as damning of Baer after he lost to Braddock too. What we don't know is Tunneys overall views after Carnera retired. What Gene says here about Primo is he could see the possibility of a better puncher than Laughran having more success. Tunney says he spotted openings with Carnera against Laughran in much the way Schmeling says he spotted openings with Joe Louis prior to their fight. Champions notice stuff like that. Primo like Louis was getting hit pretty hard in these losing fights. That's usually when fighters fall apart isn't it? So Tunney saying things fall apart because he's been hit due to these openings being exploited by a better puncher than Laughran makes perfect sense and is less derogatory than you hoped it was. He says Max was perfect.

Tunney says those things but Gene also says he was not surprised primo was not knocked out because he had great conditioning.

The same newspaper front page still lists Primo among the best four heavyweights in the world since Tunney retired. Sharkey, Schmeling Primo and Baer. And that Charlie Massera. Steve Hamas and Walter Neusel the next best coming through.

Wouldn't you think if Primo was so awful, that the view of him was so suspect that he would not have still been regarded among the best since Tunney retired?

 

But did those other people (and it would be interesting if you can name them) have so many wins over contenders rated by ring magazine? Did they beat quite so many SHW opponents as Primo had? Don't forget one of the resons old champions get downgraded is because they are either too small themselves and that they did not beat enough "modern sized/SHW" contenders. Well Primo did this. He was big and he beat as big guys. So where do you put him? Rule him out on his size? Rule him out on not beating modern sized contenders?

 

Tunney: "

This content is protected

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Whilst it might not be a comment made, post-career of Carnera, it is clear this is a broader opinion than that of just the one fight.

 

You are correct in that a broader opinion of an overall career is of more value than this, like the Schmeling evaluation, I imagine if asked outright about Carneras worth as a champion, Tunney would have said something different. This was an assessment of the loser in a losing fight, and who can look good losing?

As I said before on the same page Carnera, in light of his loss, is STILL regarded as one of the four best heavyweights since Tunney. You have made no comment on this?

Nuesel is mentioned as among the rising stars who could potentially be the next champion and Primo went on to demolish Neusel (in a legitimately impressive fight that I have produced the full report of)even after this loss!!!

 

It is perhaps a shame that Carnera didn’t retire after the Neusell fight.

It was his last win over somebody who was a current contender, and it would have been a good note to go out on.

Even the Gastanaga fight would have been a decent place to call it a day.

I guess he needed the money.

 

When Max Baer as newly crowned champion was asked to name the logical challengers for his title he named:

Max Schmeling
Steve Hamas
Primo Carnera

He ruled out Joe Louis as being too inexperienced.