Who wins? Joe Calzaghe vs Andre Ward

of course all these people rated lacy higher than joe, he was a recognised titlsit, joe wasnt. joe was a equivalent of a wbf one today.

however none of these people say lacy was seen as invincible, unstoppable. he was simply a recognised titlist - which i repeat is a good win for joe.
Whats wrong with me saying its a good win for joe? NOTHING.

So theres no problem here.

 

written by the same kind of promotor as hearn who thinks Burns is the best LW in the world when hes not even best in britain.

 

exactly lacy wasnt all that at all

 

I personally had Calzaghe winning that one by 2 or 3 points. I don't think a split decision was indicative of what I actually watched.

 

I agree

 

I actually had it a draw.. But Hopkins was so negative I'm guessing the judges allow for calzaghes willingness to engage and be aggressive. Spoiling and baby exsuses in a fight leaves a bitter taste

 

whether you think ward or kovalev won the fight is immaterial, the fact is that ward went and faced the top man in another division IN HIS PRIME (both of them) - Calzaghe never did this

and saying that Calzaghe's win over lacy, Kessler and eubank are all better than ward's win over kovalev is just plain ridiculous
the Hopkins win certainly ranks as his best win (for me), but again, Hopkins was well into his 40's
ward's win over kovalev certainly left unfinished business between the two though, and it's a measure of andre ward that he's embraced a rematch

 

Well, it's hardly ridiculous , if Ward didn't actually win. And few think he did. You (implicitly) included.

There's not a soul who doubts that Calzaghe defeated Eubank, Kessler and Lacy.

Hopkins had been offered the fight in 2002 and didn't sign.

Besides, he had just defeated Tarver before he lost to Calzaghe, and he shut out Pavlik after he lost to Calzaghe.

And some years later he beat Pascal.

Calzaghe defeated the best LHW version of BHop.

 

if you re-read the debate I was having no-one doubted that Calzaghe beat Kessler, lacy or eubank
what is also ridiculous, is you putting words in my mouth by saying I agree ward didn't actually win - the fight certainly warranted a rematch, and we have one

Hopkins getting "offered" a fight against a high risk, low reward fighter is indicative of European fighters during the roy jones, Bernard Hopkins era, who made a point of not crossing the pond and earning a shot at the world's best fighters
did anyone hear of Gennady golovkin when he was fighting in the same stable as felix sturm?
absolutely not. but now that he's made his name in the states, big fights are at his doorstep
similarly, ricky hatton was never going to get mega-fights against pacman and Mayweather while a frank warren fighter (who had zero interest in his fighters' career beyond getting them 'a belt' and then milking home grown fighters, while keeping his fighters - including Calzaghe - away from the world's stage).

I never suggested the version of Hopkins that Calzaghe beat wasn't a good one (it was), but pavlik was a MW, and my original point stands - Calzaghe did not beat a version of Hopkins (and jones of course) that was near prime, and so ward's win over kovalev trumps Calzaghe's win ove4r Kessler, which was arguably his best win over a prime fighter
beating the "best LHW version of bhop" doesn't, as we both know, give Calzaghe a pass for not fighting Hopkins during his long reign as the king of MW

 

I said: many didn't think Ward had actually won. I said: you included, implicitly, as you had said

This points to a lack of certainty that he actually won, and that's hardly surprising since most folks, casuals and experts alike, think he didn't.

And as it was a very doubtful 'win' I contrasted it with the undoubted wins of Calzaghe over Eubank, Kessler and Lacy.

For Ward's win to trump any other win, it has to be real.

Here's what a US promoter (Jay Larkin) had to say about that:

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- Jay Larkin, then Showtime TV Network's Senior Vice-President of Sports and Event Programming.


Bernard ducked a fight with Joe in the states in 2002 where he was offered everything he asked for.

IF he had won, but most feel he got a gift, so no, a fight wherer you got a decision but didn't actually win does not trump anything.

I just dealt with that above.
BHop didn't want the fight. He didn't want it in America. He didn't want it in Wales. He didn't want the fight.

 

the win is "real" because that is how it was adjudicated, no matter how much you want it to not be the case, so it comfortably beats any win Calzaghe had over a fighter in his prime.
perhaps if Calzaghe had actually crossed the pond earlier, my point would be countered with Calzaghe's achievements rather than you trying to take a legitimate victory award from ward

you gotta be in it to win it!

saying that Hopkins "ducked" Calzaghe in 2002 is like saying Calzaghe ducked froch - both are untrue because the smaller fish needs to earn his shot at the bigger fish, and Calzaghe having zero profile in the US meant that he was a high risk - low reward fighter

you'll find a number of high profile fighters in Europe during the reign of jones and Hopkins (especially in England and Germany) who didn't raise their profile in the US, and therefore did not get their career defining fight

 

You seem to be having trouble with the facts here, Aussie.

1)

A fight in where one fighter receives a gift and didn't actually win does NOT trump a fight where there is no doubt.


2)

Can you read ?

You whined about Calzaghe refusing to cross the big pond and face Bernard. I posted evidence that he was willing to do just that in 2002, and that Hopkins wanted no part of him.
And you come back with some horse$hit about needing to earn his shot at Hopkins. In 2002 he was undefeated, had been a SMW champion for five years with ten defences.

Bernard ducked him. FACT.

So which is it ?

You can't have it both ways.

 

Joe everytime, he always found a way no matter what.

 

Calzslappy is one of most overrated fighters on esb. Ward wins this one

 

Ward will just get outworked all night , i dont see him hurting Joe as he will barely throw , he will do his usual hold and rough up at the inside kind of fight but i think he wont be able to win enough rounds , Joe in UD.