When Keepin' it Real Goes Wrong: Duran vs Leonard 1

His view is based on a mischaracterization of how Leonard fought other physically imposing opponents, imo. I've posted and reposted video to back up my view but it seems like it always ends up just going ignored.

 

I agree with the second statement but not the first. Leonard had the size and foot speed to fight Duran on his bike, if he chose to do so. His decision to use controlled, moderate lateral movement while fighting a more flat-footed style made things far more difficult than necessary. The second fight makes all this pretty clear (even if New Orleans Duran wasn't the possessed superhuman Montreal Duran apparently was).

 

Not sure why you think that's stupid. I instantly recognized the Round. Round 13, one of Ray's best rounds, though the announcers were overzealous with the "DURAN IS HURT" nonsense. Ray was trying to win this thing, he knew he was behind, and a knockout was his only hope in these last few rounds. He had Duran on the ropes, he gave it a go. That's what I admire about Ray, he knew when to dance and went to fight.

 

But at the same time both guys were so good that they were unable to adjust tactically. Against hearns when he was losing the fight Ray changed gears and shifted into a more pressure based style. Against Duran had he been able to he would have but Duran was too good.

But he trained differently for the second fight and Duran did what he did in the first; his mistake was the assumption that Ray would come to him which seems illogical only in retrospect. When Ray got on his bike and minimized exchanges Duran was unable to cut off the ring as he had and force the action (this is a terrible fight BTW which no one ever talks about- Mayweather and Pac get a lot of crepe for holding a sparring session but even if Duran and Leonard had gone the full 15 they would have less punches that those two did in 12). And you know why Duran couldn't cut off the ring? Ray was too good. He was bigger, younger, faster, and every bit as skilled as Duran.

 

Well - I think you've gotten to the crux of the issue. That being whether or not it was Leonard's choice and if an alternative strategy, involving constant movement, would have taken the stone out of Duran's hands.

Some of the things Leonard has said about his state of mind/reasoning, during the bout, have led me to believe that he was, at times, fighting on instinct more than with a chosen strategy (which, in turn, makes me wonder about whether or not he felt he had a choice). But, if I'm honest, even though I've watched the fight more times than I care to remember, I'd probably need to look at it again, with certain of the relevant questions in mind.

Duran, that night in Montreal, put on a very special performance. I am just not sure how effective Leonard could have been against him on this occasion, with an attempt at continual pedaling.

 

Well, because all you've ever posted are snips of isolated instances against who you call "physically imposing opponents". So of like what Rez does in his isolated clips, but not quite as isolated. The further problem is, movement is not only dictated by you, but also dictated by your foe. In other words, you want to claim SRL movement is mutually exclusive from anything other than how he chooses to move, which completely ignores the elephant in the room of; your movement is in fact, mutually inclusive of many things, including how your foe is moving and what's he's trying to do. In other words, these "physically imposing opponents" you speak of certainly weren't doing the same things as Duran did; to say nothing of; it's a false comparison being that Duran himself wasn't "physically imposing". SRL was bigger, stronger, taller with a longer reach. He had the physical attributes in his favor, yet you're trying to say he shouldn't fought in a way similar to when he didn't have them? That is some bizarre logic there, and frankly, makes little to no sense. To go a step further keep in mind the following:

Dundee in interviews before the fight said, Duran is a heel to toe fighter, he fights best moving forward and when his foe backs up. I don't want my guy backing up, my guy is the bigger fighter, the stronger fighter, the taller fighter, why should he need to back up? He needs to take the center of the ring, and control it, I don't want him backing up. AGAIN, your foe's movement dictates your game plan and how you should fight. Yet you want to revise history based on what we now know, instead of what they ACTUALLY knew at the time. You're trying to diminish what Duran did that night by saying "oh, SRL just fought the wrong fight, Duran didn't really beat the real SRL". That is being totally disingenuous and taking away what Duran did in there that night. Even if all of the above wasn't true, and Duran just simply made SRL fight different than his game plan (not true), that would still be Duran making things happen in his favor. That is no different than circling away from someone left or counter with this punch because he holds his hands low after throwing this... You're always trying to make your foe fight your fight, it doesn't matter if that happens in the ring or prior. Duran made that happen, and not just pre fight, he beat SRL at the game plan they came up with, and one they often used to success. Duran was simply better that night, and it's as simple as that.

 

First let me say, we all appreciate you posting what you did, and it was a pleasure to watch some of the clips in isolation with descriptions. As you say, it doesn't matter that we all agree, but as long as things are respectful, we can all potentially learn a thing or two while discussing a sport we love. So Kudos to you Escudo. Second, I'd like you to expand a little bit more on what you mean by "I go by Ray's words, you go by Angelo's"? Angelo was the one with more fighting/game planning experience, and was already considered an ATG trainer. He came up with the game planning, so why wouldn't we be listening to him? Why would his word count for less than SRL, who as we know, had a tendency to embellish or slant stories to make him seem better/smarter? if we're working under the premise that SRL's words count more than Dundee's (I strongly disagree), than we must give ample credence to SRL saying he fought in a haze for 4 rounds after the second. He was hurt badly again in the 3rd. He explicitly said he head was in the clouds after that. Duran did that. SRL didn't slip on a banana peel, Duran made that happen with his feints and movement. We can visually see Duran feints from Round 2 on, visibly altering Ray's movement and offensive production. Even if we falsely believe SRL just simply "fought the wrong fight", how do we reconcile the fact that, when hurt, that can seriously alter whatever plan you had or didn't have going in or at the time. Even if SRL plan was to move more, and the correct one according to some, wouldn't getting hurt (and being in a haze/cloud) alter what you're able to execute out there? Plus, it's not like Ray didn't repeat what Angelo said prior to the fight. SRL said the same things, and that he was the bigger stronger guy and he was going to stop Duran. So he was saying similar things, so again, why aren't both to be believed? So if you could expand a little on what you mean by, I believe SRL more than Angelo, that would be appreciated. It's been good chatting though Escudo, and it's good to have such conversations and people like you around to have them with.

 

Well, my issue is, it does make him come off looking better (which is something SRL always keep in mind when talking boxing). Think about it, does it sound worse if.. You implement a strategy that has usually worked for you, but add a little wrinkle of staying your ground a little more BUT still lose; or to go, yeah I just didn't fight my fight because Duran got in my head so I wanted to beat him at his game. Which makes you sound better? The answer seems pretty clear to me. In one you're basically saying, I fought poorly and tried to fight in a way I'm not comfortable with and that is why I lost. Which again, is taking the credit away from Duran beating SRL who was being the boxer puncher... something he won gold and the championship being just that... and making it into... I just tried to beat him at something I was unfamiliar with, and lost.

I also understand what you're trying to say In Re: giving his guy confidence in some situations, just not this one. It would be true if SRL, was say, fighting Marvin Hagler; who was in fact the bigger stronger more powerful guy. The logic doesn't follow that Angelo would have to do that why SRL IS the bigger, stronger, taller fighter with the longer reach. So I just don't think that conclusion makes as much sense as the inverse.

In the end, SRL still fought a damn good fight, and lesser men would've crumbled under some of his punches. He landed cleanly on Duran many times, and that would've stopped many men, it just didn't stop Duran that night. That doesn't take away from the fact that SRL still fought a damn good fight and acquitted himself very well.

 

To add to that it was a completely rational decision at the time because l believe Duran had about a 50% KO rate going into that fight and SRL had stopped the last 4 fighters l believe leading up to it. So objectively it appeared that SRL was the harder puncher and it was thought that if they crowded him he couldn't punch with the same authority than if he could charge forward. It simply didn't work and l think in the 2nd round Ray was just trying to survive following that he was also hurt in the 3rd when Pacheco said if Leonard doesn't get off the rope Duran's going to break his ribs. A bit melodramatic to be sure but l would say for the first several rounds Leonard's plan A never worked and he was prevented from using Plan B. As the fight progress he become more effective at using plan B and the fight tightened up. But by then it was too little too late. So l think the real answe lies in the middle of these extremes. At the beginning SRL tried fighting Duran and found out he couldn't, then he got hurt and it took him several rounds to shake it off and once he did he resorted more towards boxing. That's my take on it.

 

By the way, don't most people give Leonard the first round? Several of the comments above seem to suggest that Duran was ahead from the very beginning.

 

Great break-down!

 

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