Do you consider James J Jeffries an ATG?

You have read Adam's book, so I know that you are familiar with the shenanigans that went on during the negotiations for Jeffries Fitz II.

Suffice it to say that both men were playing an ambivalent game, and when the negotiations fell through, Jeffries signed to fight the man who was the consensus #2 challenger.

Finnegan was just the type of stay busy fight that most long reigning champions take.

I would agree with your assessment that Munro was a manufactured fighter, but I must insist that he did have significant backing as a contender in the media.

I don't actually think that Jeffries wanted to fight him.

It looks more like he was goaded into it.

 

Fitz said he would fight Jeffries within a month of his win over Sharkey.My point is he took on the two outstanding contenders and ko'd them in the space of two weeks,Yet Jeffries next defence was against Ruhlin whom he had half killed.
Your assertion that Jeffries fought the best available challengers doesn't hold water, he ducked the three best black challengers and he ducked Fitz for 2 years. Seven defences 4 of them soft ones , 3 of them on a par with Frazier's 2 against Stander and Daniels.That is not ATG material imo.

 

I submit that the answer must be yes, even if your interpretation of him turns out to be correct.

 

What I look at is what the opponent was at the time!

Joe Louis was not the greatest heavyweight of all time when Marciano beat him, but he was still a highly ranked contender, and therefore a significant scalp.

If you look into the detail of these fights, you might find that they are not so clear cut, even though there will still be criticism to be levelled at Jeffries.

 

Fitz said he would fight Jeffries within a month of his win over Sharkey.My point is he took on the two outstanding contenders and ko'd them in the space of two weeks,Yet Jeffries next defence was against Ruhlin whom he had half killed.
Your assertion that Jeffries fought the best available challengers doesn't hold water, he ducked the three best black challengers and he ducked Fitz for 2 years. Seven defences 4 of them soft ones , 3 of them on a par with Frazier's 2 against Stander and Daniels.That is not ATG material imo.

I'd say he was a great fighter for his times,and leave it there.

 

OK, let’s look at the facts.

Jeffries starts his title reign by facing the three best available challengers Fitz, Sharkey, and Corbett in the space of a year.

Totally unprecedented at that time.

He is forced into inactivity by an arm injury, supported by a surviving X ray, which almost forces his retirement.

When he comes back to the ring, he understandably takes a couple of warm up fights, none of who were Stander or Daniels type opponents.

Ruhlin is the outstanding challenger before Fitzsimmons beats him; he ends up fighting both of them, though not in the right order.

He probably has to fight Corbett based on their previous encounter, and Corbett’s win over McCoy.

How much does it matter that he avoided the top black contenders?

Johnson was an outstanding challenger, but came along at the end of his reign anyway.

Denver Ed Martin would have been a Gur Ruhlin type challenger, but every champion misses somebody like that.

Overall, I would say less issues than Johnson or Dempsey’s title reigns!

 

I might address this tomorrow its a bit too hot here at the moment.

 

I have the same problem here!

 

I feel that there are certain eras where the best contenders are older defensive specialists.

The Marciano era is a case in point.

Sometimes the btter older contenders, clean out the best of the young up and coming generation.

Then the champion of the day is inevitably going to be measured against them.

 

Tunney did lose to a middleweight. Not almost. Dempsey was knocked down 9 times by a middleweight, and a mediocre one at that. The smallest opponents Jeff fought, Choynski and Fitz, were not all that much smaller than Gibbons or Conn who went a lot of rounds with Dempsey and Louis.
This criticism is true but doesn't have the impact when compared to pre-1960 fighters you grant it.

The point about Corbett not winning in 6 years is solid. The 30 lbs. stuff is just again criticizing Jeff merely for being big, which is pointless with a heavyweight. Corbett was about the same size as Tunney (see their sparring film) and perhaps even a bit the taller, and Tunney handled Dempsey.

Fitz did better against common opponents--he was a triple champion and the utterly outstanding p4p fighter of the era. Jeffries knocked him out twice which I think trumps common opponents. Eduardo Lausse did better against common opponents than Sugar Ray Robinson. So Lausse was better?

Frankly, the implied Fritz criticisms are over the top. From Feb. 1890 to Dec. 1905, almost 16 years, Fitz had three losses. One was a phony DQ to Sharkey when Sharkey was stretched on the floor. The other two were knockout defeats to Jeffries. These Jeffries victories are just plain impressive, arguably more so than any single Dempsey victory.

 

"It is completely plausible that Fitz most likely would have beaten him had he been prime. This is just undeniable."

It might be plausible (it is also plausible that Fitz might have beaten Dempsey or Tunney) but it not most likely. And while it might be undeniable that it is "plausible" it in fact didn't happen, and also when exactly was Fitz in his prime at heavyweight? It is at least equally and I think more plausible that the best version of Jeffries would have beaten the best version of Fitz.

On the size thing, I disagree completely with you for it doesn't matter a bit what the weight differential was. Gibbons weighed 175 for Dempsey. Dempsey had 13 lbs. on him. Jeff would have had about 45 lbs. But Gibbons is still the same size and they are fighting in an unlimited division, so Jeff beating Gibbons would mean exactly the same thing as Dempsey beating him. No less. And no more.

I know you hate other sports analogies, but it is like in golf. A 150 lb. man driving the ball 300 yards off the tee might be abstractly more impressive than a 210 lb. man driving the ball 300 yards, but 300 yards is 300 yards and it is absolutely the same feat.